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Thread: The Neo Geo was just a glorified Genesis.

  1. #31
    What? Shir is gone? Raging in the Streets StarMist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntz View Post
    The graphics processor is a beast and it has ADPCM (which I find sounds far more awesome than FM actually).
    >>>>

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I still have my Neo Geo CD ROM and little was lost on the Vs Fighters on the system and in came music which blew away the MVS/AES versions imo (and they already sounded stunning)
    This. NeoGeo sound quality wasn't even assuredly matched on CD as some of the Saturn ports demonstrate, and it was leagues ahead of the Genesis except for games developed by Sega, with some of the early Taito/Toaplan ports being the next closest. I'm not too impressed by the SCD's offerings either, I just hear CD sound w/o anything really special going on in terms of spacing, orchestration, or ambience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christuserloeser View Post
    No. All Sega consoles were compatible to their predecessors.
    This doesn't mean those previous instances weren't due to Sega's previous competition. You're certainly right though about how they clung to their MS software (which makes it doubly irritating they wouldn't cling to later franchises such as SF, PD[S], Nights, &c).

    Let's not forget that marketing was totally different in Japan and Europe. The arcade/sports focus only applied to the US marketing.
    True, though I'd've expected a strong racing focus in Europe.

  2. #32
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    Yep, which was part of the reason I went from the A8 to Amiga. I rather liked how well the A8 was designed, and the best parts carried over to the Amiga. It was the true successor to the A8, but Atari and CBM kinda swapped 16-bit platforms there.
    I wouldn't really call the Atari-ST a followup to the C64. Swapped isn't the right word, more like took the 16bit platform. It was originally going to be Atari's.
    Jay Miner also really had an obsession with vertical gradients. In every system designed by him you see a ton of vertical gradients.
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    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMist View Post
    This. NeoGeo sound quality wasn't even assuredly matched on CD as some of the Saturn ports demonstrate, and it was leagues ahead of the Genesis except for games developed by Sega, with some of the early Taito/Toaplan ports being the next closest. I'm not too impressed by the SCD's offerings either, I just hear CD sound w/o anything really special going on in terms of spacing, orchestration, or ambience.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here... that the Neo Geo AES surpassed CD quality? As far as the Sega CD goes it was limited only by the composer. You want spatial ambiance try playing either of the Ecco games. You want orchestration, try Dark Wizard. You simply want some good compositions try Batman Returns, Sonic CD (US or JP), Final Fight CD, After Burner 3 and a host of others. Neo Geo games usually sound rather "grungy". That's not to say it was bad, but crystal-clarity was not the Neo Geo's strong point. It has its own unique sound quality. I like that in a system.

  4. #34
    What? Shir is gone? Raging in the Streets StarMist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here... It has its own unique sound quality. I like that in a system.
    This edit illustrates what I was trying to imply.
    @ the SCD exms = I know those; most, in particular Dark Wizard, don't do it for me. And as usual re such topics I'm not addressing sheer theory, as obviously the SCD was limited only* by composer, but actual output. Sonic CD does have some very good compositions, in especial the Aquatic lv, when not infringed on by R&B crooning. Ecco's an exm I agree with, but only 1, I don't think that can be applied to most games that need it: Snatcher would get a B in this department, which is rather poor considering the importance of ambience to such a game. On the other hand I like Keio FS's music quite a bit but it doesn't trumpet maximum clarity.
    * Crystal clarity isn't everything to me, and CDs aren't remarkable for audal breadth, they can sound compressed and I would go so far as to say they tend to sound compressed when their music is a remastering or other transferal from another medium. This aspect is a limitation not up to the composer.
    The NeoGeo has many rich sounding games to me, such as Metal Slug and the majority of the fighters. Ghost Pilots? That could be on Genesis. I'm not trying to make a blanket case either way for either console.

  5. #35
    ToeJam is a wiener Hero of Algol Guntz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    The largest Neo Geo games were 708 megabits.
    Actually, the largest Neo Geo game ever published by SNK (well, Playmore in this case), was King of Fighters 2003, which was 716 megabits. However yes, quite a few Neo games sit exactly at 708 megs, like Metal Slug 3, MS5, Samurai Shodown 5 & Special and probably SVC Chaos as well.

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    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    StarMist it doesn't sound like you are tremendously familiar with audio from a technical standpoint. If a CD sounds compressed, it was mastered that way. You may cite examples of the vinyl sounding better, but you do need to re-EQ for the capabilities of CD. Vinyl is usually over-compensated on the high end due to the medium itself. Put that same master recording EQ on CD and it will sound very harsh. However you can record a vinyl from a record player directly to a CD and the CD will sound every bit as good to everyone but the biggest golden-ears, especially during a blind test. There are plenty CDs that are properly mastered and do not sound compressed and the Sega CD plays them fine. Dark Wizard is admittedly not a shining example of dynamic range, but the Neo Geo is much more limited to when it comes to dynamic range. While it certainly has better sound capabilities than, say, the Genesis, I find that the Genesis has more games with great music than the Neo Geo does. So does the TurboGrafx-16, NES and SNES. Metal Slug doesn't do it for me. It is appropriate for the game, but I wouldn't want to listen to THAT music if I weren't playing the game. It doesn't stand well enough on its own. And even when I am playing the game, I never think "Wow, this sounds technically impressive" because, well, it isn't. I am more impressed with the few Neo Geo games that stream music, albeit in mono, like Metal Slug 4's first stage. The Neo Geo's ADPCM capabilities are well below that of CD. And Neo Turf Masters trounces the music in pretty much any Metal Slug game.

    Maybe there is a miscommunication somewhere in what you are trying to say and I am not understanding it properly. It doesn't seem like English is your first language, correct?
    Last edited by Joe Redifer; 12-27-2011 at 02:03 AM.

  7. #37
    What? Shir is gone? Raging in the Streets StarMist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer View Post
    If a CD sounds compressed, it was mastered that way.
    ...Well yes. I wasn't saying otherwise. I was suggesting this is how they're often (intentionally) mastered.

    You may cite examples of the vinyl sounding better, but you do need to re-EQ for the capabilities of CD. Vinyl is usually over-compensated on the high end due to the medium itself. Put that same master recording EQ on CD and it will sound very harsh. However you can record a vinyl from a record player directly to a CD and the CD will sound every bit as good to everyone but the biggest golden-ears, especially during a blind test.
    I never mess with my EQ for either, much less for switching twixt them. The LP to CD transfer is all very well for a suggestion, but then few CDs outside the classical field are recorded after the fashion of vinyl (which generally had more oldfashioned ie better recording practices because it was the older medium; newer practices optomize recording for playback on cheap equipment and in distracted circumstances such as the car, revels, and afoot with headphones).

    There are plenty CDs that are properly mastered and do not sound compressed and the Sega CD plays them fine. Dark Wizard is admittedly not a shining example of dynamic range, but the Neo Geo is much more limited to when it comes to dynamic range.
    I thought we agreed on liking its limitations.

    While it certainly has better sound capabilities than, say, the Genesis, I find that the Genesis has more games with great music than the Neo Geo does. So does the TurboGrafx-16, NES and SNES.
    I prefer some Genesis music as well, hence my original mention/exception of that in games made by Sega; I also mentioned Taito/Toaplan in that mix. With Sega and Taito/Toaplan's games excluded from the comparison I think it would be very tight as all the Samurai Spirits games (counting Retsuden) have excellent music, whilst a lot of the G/MD top dogs (ahem) are barrens to me, yet there are compensations such as Sol Deace, Junction, Rolling Thunder 2, and Dangerous Seed.

    Metal Slug doesn't do it for me. It is appropriate for the game, but I wouldn't want to listen to THAT music if I weren't playing the game. It doesn't stand well enough on its own. And even when I am playing the game, I never think "Wow, this sounds technically impressive" because, well, it isn't.
    I don't judge music on its extralusory merits, video game music is for playing video games: when I'm not playing them I'm not listening to it. Metal Slug's music I do find noticeably rich, unlike say the forgettable belauded background noise of such famous games as Soukyugurentai, RSG, and Thunderforce IV--though there are a couple remarkable metal riffs in TFIV's Ruins and I think lv 7 (wherever the fly boss with the feelers is) stolen from the `80s...you'd have to ask someone who knows that music better to identify them. Incidentally that's TFIV on Saturn where the music's brought out far better than on the MD. Metal Slug's not tuneful but then it oughtn't be, it's the noise fueling some sickly carnage.

  8. #38
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    This. NeoGeo sound quality wasn't even assuredly matched on CD as some of the Saturn ports demonstrate, and it was leagues ahead of the Genesis except for games developed by Sega, with some of the early Taito/Toaplan ports being the next closest. I'm not too impressed by the SCD's offerings either, I just hear CD sound w/o anything really special going on in terms of spacing, orchestration, or ambience.
    ? The music is the Neo CD games and Saturn ports is much better than the Cart versions imo, Samurai Shodown is just hauntingly beautiful and the music in the CD version of Fatal Fury, KOF simple rocks. As for not being impressed with the Mega CD music ? You didn't like the music score to the Lunar, Batman Returns, Soul Star, Ecco, XJ 220, Sonic CD ? and the likes of FIFA, Pitfall , Final Fight, Switch give the Mega CD soundchip a good work out too
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    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMist
    I never mess with my EQ for either, much less for switching twixt them.
    What I meant by that was that the recording masters need to be re-EQd when you make a CD version. I don't mean the user at home should do the EQing.

    Anyway, I'm not sure why we're having this discussion. We're talking about the technical merits of the game systems here. To say that the Neo Geo sound quality was not matched by CDs is plain ridiculous. Even the PCM hardware inside of the Sega CD is more capable than the Neo Geo's 7 channel ADPCM and that's not even counting the CD-DA. It's one thing to say that you prefer the music of the Neo Geo, but to say it wasn't matched by CD?

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    Bite my shiny, metal ***! Hero of Algol retrospiel's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that most Neo games simply stream a mono ADPCM file at 22khz....
    The Mega Drive was far inferior to the NES in terms of diffusion rate and sales in the Japanese market, though there were ardent Sega users. But in the US and Europe, we knew Sega could challenge Nintendo. We aimed at dominating those markets, hiring experienced staff for our overseas department in Japan, and revitalising Sega of America and the ailing Virgin group in Europe.

    Then we set about developing killer games.

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    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer View Post
    What I meant by that was that the recording masters need to be re-EQd when you make a CD version. I don't mean the user at home should do the EQing.
    All analog recording media have a different frequency response curve, and the recorder and player need to take that into account to give the best sound. Remember when tape recorders had another switch for Chromium Oxide tapes? While a digital medium doesn't have a response curve in itself, the ADC and DAC will, so you would need to compensate for them. The most common form of compensation for the DAC is oversampling to push the noise into a higher frequency range. Then there are a couple of different filters used that produce better results than a plain single pole low-pass filter.


    Anyway, I'm not sure why we're having this discussion. We're talking about the technical merits of the game systems here. To say that the Neo Geo sound quality was not matched by CDs is plain ridiculous. Even the PCM hardware inside of the Sega CD is more capable than the Neo Geo's 7 channel ADPCM and that's not even counting the CD-DA. It's one thing to say that you prefer the music of the Neo Geo, but to say it wasn't matched by CD?
    The SEGA CD audio is very good - much better than the regular audio in the MD/Genesis, especially for the Model 2 MD/Genesis. I don't know how good the audio circuitry is in the NeoGeo CD. It would be interesting for someone with both to compare the output of the same audio CD to see which has the least noise and distortion.

  12. #42
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christuserloeser View Post
    I am pretty sure that most Neo games simply stream a mono ADPCM file at 22khz....
    Some have actual tracker music, particularly the KoF games. Metal Slug 1-3 use both FM and PCM.
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  13. #43
    Hard Road! ESWAT Veteran Barone's Avatar
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    I just want to let a side note in this discussion that StarMist and Joe Redifer were having.
    I was toying with some Sega CD soundtracks and the QXpander plugin in the last weeks and I just want to let my comments...

    Some Sega CD soundtracks were poorly mixed, it's a fact.
    As a prime example I can point Mickey Mania. The source material, per si, sounds poorly mixed. The instruments do not sound well mixed and/or poorly recorded. The high frequencies seem to be completely cut using a bad compressor to "normalize" the volume... The wave forms are really "ugly".
    Also, for the in-game PCM samples, they sound muffled when compared to the PS1 version. I think it's more due to the limited PCM RAM than to the Ricoh soundchip itself.
    The PS1 version has a different soundtrack, mixed using Dolby Surround technology. I don't like the compositions that much, but the mixing quality is far superior to the Sega CD version and, as a final result, you get a much better sounding game.

    Flink sounds way better than Mickey Mania, but it has like over-amplified high frequencies resulting in some extra noise. It also lacks in the low and middle frequencies.
    It's spiritual sequel, The Adventures of Lomax was mixed using Dolby Surround and QSound technologies for the PS1. The soundtrack sounds better mixed, yes.
    But using the QXpander plugin and some Re-Eq Flink's soundtrack mixing quality sounds on par with Lomax's.

    Pitfall is another game using some arguable compressing scheme to normalize the volume. The high frequencies seem to be affected... I also thought that its soundtrack could sound great adding some "spacing" effect (generally speaking, the QXpander plugin will give you better results with instruments like piano and drums...), so I did something on it. You can compare this track for an example (I converted it to MP3 using high-quality VBR but I have the .WAV files here if you want):
    Pitfall - Track 05
    Pitfall - Track 05 (edited)

    Some games, like Final Fight CD and Bari-Arm already have great mixing quality and they don't need to be improved IMO.
    Like Joe said, Ecco The Dolphin is a great example of what mixing can do for a CD game.
    I would also point Terminator as another great example: all the QSound effects, not only the spacing one, were used in the right way IMO.

    Sega CD games using QSound:
    Ecco the Dolphin
    Sonic the Hedgehog (US version)
    Joe Montana Football
    Spiderman vs. Kingpin
    Jurassic Park
    Ecco, The Tides of Time
    Terminator
    Eternal Champions: Challenge from the Dark Side

    Snatcher uses the Roland Sound Space technology.
    The game uses more the Doppler effect provided by RSS than anything else, so don't expect too much from it. However, I like the soundtrack very much and the mixing quality is good IMO.
    For better examples of RSS technology I would recommend the Em:t albums Gas and Woob (this one is said to be "the greatest ambiental album of all time").

    Finally, I just can say that many Sega CD games could have sounded better with the proper mixing.

  14. #44
    Love, Peace and Snack Bar Road Rasher VGTM's Avatar
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    Genesis= 16 Bit
    Neo Geo= 24 Bit
    Why are we bringing up 32X anyways?
    If Jadty's quote was true, Genesis ports of Neo Geo games like Samurai Showdown would be PERFECT.
    Last edited by VGTM; 12-27-2011 at 04:15 PM.
    WARNING: The post above may or may not be utter nonsense, but it's best to assume that it is.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by VGTM View Post
    Neo Geo= 24 Bit
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