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Thread: The Neo Geo was just a glorified Genesis.

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    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    You are obviously a weenie.



    Do the math, or something.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The Neo Geo hardware isn't similar at all to the Genesis. They share processors, but so did the Amiga, the Atari-ST, the Macintosh, etc... It means nothing. The Neo Geo hardware is much, much more powerful.
    The 32x should be able to compete with early Neo-Geo titles in both sound and graphics. The problem is the animation, the 32x can do a lot more than the Neo Geo can, but it can't animate stuff as fast.
    Yeah it can do amazingly smooth animation, that is what the Neo Geo is all about.

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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Do the math, or something.
    They obviously failed at it , they got NEC and SEGA switched around in the SPRITES and CHANNELS .
    Also funny that the NES has 5 channels, and yet it has a much smaller bar than "Sega" in the channels.
    Gotta love shitty marketing.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

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    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl
    The Neo Geo hardware isn't similar at all to the Genesis. They share processors, but so did the Amiga, the Atari-ST, the Macintosh, etc... It means nothing. The Neo Geo hardware is much, much more powerful.
    The 32x should be able to compete with early Neo-Geo titles in both sound and graphics. The problem is the animation, the 32x can do a lot more than the Neo Geo can, but it can't animate stuff as fast.
    Yeah it can do amazingly smooth animation, that is what the Neo Geo is all about.
    Animation is merely a product of the large roms. The MD could do "amazingly smooth animation" with more rom space. Also, the 32X can easily outperform the NeoGeo if you wrote your pseudo-VDP code along the same lines as the way the NeoGeo works - nothing but sprites, and limited to 96 per scan line. Again, the main limitation here would be rom space for animation frames. The game would need to use the SEGA mapper for a 32MB rom, and even then you're talking less space than was in NeoGeo carts. That's almost the only thing the NeoGeo had over anything else - massive carts.

    Look back at what Joe said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
    Too bad no Neo Geo game even came close to this. There might be a Neo Geo game out there with 4 BG layers + "sprites" but I would be blown away if there as a game that ever had more. With only 96 sprites per scanline and the Neo Geo needing to use sprites to draw backgrounds, I'm not surprised that most games only use two BG layers. Some use 3 and I've never seen 4 but there might be an example somewhere. It's just that the 96 sprites per scanline is too weak and flicker would come in pretty quickly. Not sure why they didn't give the thing at least 1 real BG layer. It would take 20 sprites to fill just one screen-width of background. The 96 sprite-per-scanline means the Neo Geo has a maximum of 4.8 background layers before flicker occurs. Knocking the resolution down to 304 pixels wide and you can just squeeze in 5 layers. This is without the player or any enemies onscreen at all. If you want the player(s) and enemy(s) onscreen you gotta knock that back to a safe 3.
    The NeoGeo was geared towards a certain kind of game - one that needed lots of sprites, with tons of rom space to hold all those "amazingly smooth animated" sprites. Even systems that make the NeoGeo look like crap had to cut animation frames to fit into ram. That was the main complaint about ports of those games to the PSX and Saturn - the animation had to be cut due to limited memory. One Saturn game included an extra rom cart to use with the game to make up for the lack of ram for animation.

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    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    They obviously failed at it , they got NEC and SEGA switched around in the SPRITES and CHANNELS .
    Also funny that the NES has 5 channels, and yet it has a much smaller bar than "Sega" in the channels.
    Gotta love shitty marketing.
    Hahah, I was wondering if anybody would look at that. It just goes to show you what executives and marketing departments know about hardware and software.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer View Post
    StarMist it doesn't sound like you are tremendously familiar with audio from a technical standpoint. If a CD sounds compressed, it was mastered that way. You may cite examples of the vinyl sounding better, but you do need to re-EQ for the capabilities of CD. Vinyl is usually over-compensated on the high end due to the medium itself. Put that same master recording EQ on CD and it will sound very harsh. However you can record a vinyl from a record player directly to a CD and the CD will sound every bit as good to everyone but the biggest golden-ears, especially during a blind test. There are plenty CDs that are properly mastered and do not sound compressed and the Sega CD plays them fine. Dark Wizard is admittedly not a shining example of dynamic range, but the Neo Geo is much more limited to when it comes to dynamic range. While it certainly has better sound capabilities than, say, the Genesis, I find that the Genesis has more games with great music than the Neo Geo does. So does the TurboGrafx-16, NES and SNES. Metal Slug doesn't do it for me. It is appropriate for the game, but I wouldn't want to listen to THAT music if I weren't playing the game. It doesn't stand well enough on its own. And even when I am playing the game, I never think "Wow, this sounds technically impressive" because, well, it isn't. I am more impressed with the few Neo Geo games that stream music, albeit in mono, like Metal Slug 4's first stage. The Neo Geo's ADPCM capabilities are well below that of CD. And Neo Turf Masters trounces the music in pretty much any Metal Slug game.

    Maybe there is a miscommunication somewhere in what you are trying to say and I am not understanding it properly. It doesn't seem like English is your first language, correct?
    I would argue that the newer games made for the Neo Geo, like Fast Striker, show how good music and obviously sound FX can sound on the AES/MVS Hardware. Obviously this is overkill as this game is 1,560MEGS so they sky is the limit. One thing to remember is that this game was made for the Dreamcast and the Neo Geo and the Neo Geo has MORE animation than the Dreamcast. This is most likely due to the ram limitations of the Dreamcast buffer. It also has to load the boss and the boss has a slight delay before it explodes as it needs to be loaded. The Neo deserves more credit than this thread title would allude to.



    Damn good sound from a cart if I do say so myself.

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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Damn good sound from a cart if I do say so myself.
    That music isn't coming from the cart . Try the same song but at around 22hz.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

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    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Since we have gone all technical anyway, I think the OP made a mistake in terminology. I kind of want a lit up brilliant Genesis now.

    Glorified:

    transitive verb
    1
    a : to make glorious by bestowing honor, praise, or admiration b : to elevate to celestial glory

    2
    : to light up brilliantly

    3
    a : to represent as glorious : extol <a song glorifying romantic love> b : to cause to be or seem to be better than the actual condition <the new position is just a glorified version of the old stockroom job>

    4
    : to give glory to (as in worship)
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    Animation is merely a product of the large roms. The MD could do "amazingly smooth animation" with more rom space. Also, the 32X can easily outperform the NeoGeo if you wrote your pseudo-VDP code along the same lines as the way the NeoGeo works - nothing but sprites, and limited to 96 per scan line. Again, the main limitation here would be rom space for animation frames. The game would need to use the SEGA mapper for a 32MB rom, and even then you're talking less space than was in NeoGeo carts. That's almost the only thing the NeoGeo had over anything else - massive carts.

    Look back at what Joe said:



    The NeoGeo was geared towards a certain kind of game - one that needed lots of sprites, with tons of rom space to hold all those "amazingly smooth animated" sprites. Even systems that make the NeoGeo look like crap had to cut animation frames to fit into ram. That was the main complaint about ports of those games to the PSX and Saturn - the animation had to be cut due to limited memory. One Saturn game included an extra rom cart to use with the game to make up for the lack of ram for animation.
    Obviously the SNK Marketing Team was right. Bigger=Better. That one Saturn Game was MS and KOF, wait more than one game.

    T-3101G_1,,Sega-Saturn-Photo-1-The-King-of-Fighters-95-JPN.jpg!B,c-UhQBGk~$(KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmWpluBKrjoB7ltw~~_35.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    That music isn't coming from the cart . Try the same song but at around 22hz.
    OK lemy try again.



    Still sounds good through a sh1ty camera off of an arcade machine with speakers that obviously generate no bass. Still sounds amazing from a cart and I bet the one I posted before was from the cart.

    FYI if you get an MVS system like me hook up a sub to it, it souns so much better.

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Obviously the SNK Marketing Team was right. Bigger=Better. That one Saturn Game was MS and KOF, wait more than one game.
    Doesn't Metal Slug only use the generic ram cart that other Neo Geo and CPS2 ports use?



    OK lemy try again.



    Still sounds good through a sh1ty camera off of an arcade machine with speakers that obviously generate no bass. Still sounds amazing from a cart and I bet the one I posted before was from the cart.


    That first stage sounded like PC Engine chip music, the second Genesis music, the third SNES music. Everything from that game sounds good though, but not as nice as this:






    The Genesis deserves more credit than this thread title would allude to.

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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    The fact that it was recorded through a sh1ty camera off of an arcade machine with speakers that obviously generate no bass is exactly why you can't tell the difference .
    Trust me, it sounds really good, but not CD-Quality good like in that youtube video.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

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    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    I would argue that the newer games made for the Neo Geo, like Fast Striker, show how good music and obviously sound FX can sound on the AES/MVS Hardware. Obviously this is overkill as this game is 1,560MEGS so they sky is the limit. One thing to remember is that this game was made for the Dreamcast and the Neo Geo and the Neo Geo has MORE animation than the Dreamcast. This is most likely due to the ram limitations of the Dreamcast buffer. It also has to load the boss and the boss has a slight delay before it explodes as it needs to be loaded. The Neo deserves more credit than this thread title would allude to.
    And I'd argue that it deserves less credit. Without the massive carts (massive in both size and price), it would barely look/sound any better than the MD. As Joe said, most of that sprite power goes to making layers in games with layers, so the most you would normally see is a few more colors. Everything else is a product of having so much rom space that everything can be done on the fly from rom. Games on the Genesis compressed video data to make it fit an even smaller rom - nothing is compressed in the NeoGeo (or next to nothing).

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    ToeJam is a wiener Hero of Algol Guntz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    That one Saturn Game was MS and KOF, wait more than one game.
    No, Metal Slug uses a RAM cart (can't remember which one, 1MB or 4MB...), KOF '95 uses a ROM cart, which was obviously specific to that game. Not a bad idea at all though, using ROM in the expansion slot.

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    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    KOF 96 and other successive KOF games used the 1MB RAM cart. 95 was the only one to use a ROM cart. SNK never bothered with the 4MB RAM cart unfortunately. I've never seen anythin as awesome as X-Men vs Street Fighter on the Neo Geo, though that is purely subjective, I'll admit.

    The backgrounds in Fast Striker are sure repetitive. They aren't even a screen high before they repeat. It's probably 15 or 20 frames just looping again and again. Maybe 30. Can't be much more.

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    And I'd argue that it deserves less credit. Without the massive carts (massive in both size and price), it would barely look/sound any better than the MD. As Joe said, most of that sprite power goes to making layers in games with layers, so the most you would normally see is a few more colors. Everything else is a product of having so much rom space that everything can be done on the fly from rom. Games on the Genesis compressed video data to make it fit an even smaller rom - nothing is compressed in the NeoGeo (or next to nothing).
    If my Aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. If the Genesis had a better sound processor and more colors it would look better than the SNES. The Neo Geo could move massive amount of memory and sprites and scaling and color and so on. The huge carts are just as huge of a benefit of a much larger budget. It's like arguing a Ferrari is faster because it has a V8 while a Toyota Camry only has 4 cylinders. As to that I would say DUH. Both will get you to the store but man who wouldn't take that Ferrari. A much smaller Rom game could still take advantage of the Neo's hardware in a way that the Sega Genesis could never.

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