Magical Game Factory Official Thread

[Kamahl]

Another sign of the programming job quality is the sample playback, far superior on the Samurai Shodown.

That's Z80 programming though.

[Joe Redifer]

Genesis CPU can't handle that without heavy slowdown. Final Fight CD is running in a M68K @12.5Mhz while Genesis M68K is @7.67Mhz.

Is the Sega CD CPU doing the processing for Final Fight? Is there enough bandwidth in the system for it to do that? I figured the Sega CD CPU was just to render out and push background tiles for scaling/rotation and FMV. Then those tiles are sent to the Genesis pre-rendered. Can it actually move Genesis sprites around as if a new, faster CPU was attached to the Genesis motherboard? If so, Magical Watermelon Factory could easily offer an option. Let the Genesis CPU run it or, if present, let the Sega CD CPU run it, no disc required.

Here's the code to do it:

-check if segacd present. y/n
-if y use segacd cpu for max power
-if n fuk off

[tomaitheous]

The larger sprites is going to take more cpu resource than smaller sprites, in this context of a SOR game. Well, assuming the difference is big enough. Look at the SOR games. They don't use larger 32x32 sprite setups to get larger sprites on screen. They use smaller size sprites (like 24x8, 16x8, 8x8) for the meta-sprite. They do that because of the sprite scanline limit, which otherwise would get hit real quick resulting in blank out (flicker if the code detects this and applies sprite table shifting to at least get flicker). The larger the sprites and the smaller segments for optimization, the more the cpu resource it takes to build out the meta-sprite from the table. Might not be huge amount, but it's still not free. The increased collision box size shouldn't matter. If a game port has smaller sprites than the arcade, it's probably either due to sprite scanline limit or rom/cdram storage space, or possibly both.

Is the Sega CD CPU doing the processing for Final Fight? Is there enough bandwidth in the system for it to do that? I figured the Sega CD CPU was just to render out and push background tiles for scaling/rotation and FMV. Then those tiles are sent to the Genesis pre-rendered. Can it actually move Genesis sprites around as if a new, faster CPU was attached to the Genesis motherboard? If so, Magical Watermelon Factory could easily offer an option. Let the Genesis CPU run it or, if present, let the Sega CD CPU run it, no disc required.

I don't see why you couldn't run the game logic on the Sega CD cpu. The SegaCD cpu just needs to issue commands to Genesis cpu to tell it where/when/what to update to the VDP since it doesn't have direct access. Other small stuff like map scrolling and such could also be delegated to the Genesis cpu as well (the actual low level details).

[Barone]

Is the Sega CD CPU doing the processing for Final Fight? Is there enough bandwidth in the system for it to do that? I figured the Sega CD CPU was just to render out and push background tiles for scaling/rotation and FMV. Then those tiles are sent to the Genesis pre-rendered. Can it actually move Genesis sprites around as if a new, faster CPU was attached to the Genesis motherboard?

Well, AFAIK games like Final Fight CD, Samurai Shodown, Out Of This World & Heart Of The Alien, SoulStar, Bari-Arm, Wing Commander, Silpheed... Are running mostly on the MCD.
Some games like Wing Commander and Silpheed combine both soundchips to make better/richer music or to provide in game music while using the Sega CD soundchip just for sfx and voices (Wing Commander). But the Genesis help ends there if we do not take the VDP in account.

Some Sega CD games run totally on the Genesis just using the Sega CD for videos and CDDA music, like Flashback.

If so, Magical Watermelon Factory could easily offer an option. Let the Genesis CPU run it or, if present, let the Sega CD CPU run it, no disc required.

It wouldn't be that easy...
When you port the code to the Sega CD, if you are targeting to explore all the Sega CD capabilities, you have to redesign the memory management, since you don't have instant access like when using cartridges... You have to work around the Sega CD's RAM and things like sample playback can get a bit more complicated depending on the number of in game samples that you need, since it has to be stored in the Sega CD's tiny memory (64KB) in order to avoid in game loadings from the CD or heavy CPU usage to load the samples from the work RAM to the PCM RAM...
Even using no disc (I assume that you are suggesting to load all the data from the cartridge) you'll would face those problems since the Sega CD's CPU does not have direct/fast access to the cartridge data... There's the permission shit to handle (Genesis can now write on the word RAM, Sega CD can now read from the word RAM...).
As you can see, it's not a simple task.

What's pretty possible is to use the Sega CD as an audio enhancer device like they timidly did with Pier Solar. Aside from the use of CD soundtrack, you can use the same trick (Sega CD's mode 1) in order to play sfx and voice samples using the Sega CD soundchip. Since you're not running the main program on the Sega CD side, you can use its M68K to load new samples on the PCM RAM from the word RAM (much bigger than the PCM RAM) all the time... And then you can use all the mixing goodies of the Sega CD's soundchip...
You could have stereo SFX (like characters hitting the floor on the left side of the screen would produce a sound in the left channel; or something like that but for multiple samples as well), maybe some environmental stuff like water sound if you're passing by a background with a waterfall (also using stereo panning while you're moving to give the proper sensation) and, certainly, much better voice playback. You also don't need to store such extra samples on the cartridge, you can load it from CD into the work RAM, for an example, then play a CDDA track and keep using the Sega CD's CPU to toy with all those sfx.
That's what I'm expecting for this new release.

The larger sprites is going to take more cpu resource than smaller sprites, in this context of a SOR game. Well, assuming the difference is big enough. Look at the SOR games. They don't use larger 32x32 sprite setups to get larger sprites on screen. They use smaller size sprites (like 24x8, 16x8, 8x8) for the meta-sprite. They do that because of the sprite scanline limit, which otherwise would get hit real quick resulting in blank out (flicker if the code detects this and applies sprite table shifting to at least get flicker). The larger the sprites and the smaller segments for optimization, the more the cpu resource it takes to build out the meta-sprite from the table. Might not be huge amount, but it's still not free. The increased collision box size shouldn't matter. If a game port has smaller sprites than the arcade, it's probably either due to sprite scanline limit or rom/cdram storage space, or possibly both.

Thanks for the great explanation.

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

I enjoyed reading the exchange of ideas! With respect to a multi-tap converter, sure it would be nice to have the ability to play the game with more than two people. But the question is how many people today actually have access to a multi-tap converter? And also, do we really need a 3 or 4 player to enjoy this sort of game? Even if this type of option is built into the game, I am sure that it will require more time invested in terms of ensuring that the difficult of the game is not hampered when you have 3 or 4 players. I have an inking that the vast majority of people would not consider this option if it would result in the delay of the game's official release. Keep in mind, that the developer will need time to complete their quality assurance as well. The more things you add, the more time it will take to build a decent game. Personally, I would rather that the game offers 2 player co-op only and that the characters have a wide assortment of moves at their disposal rather than implementing a 3 (or 4) player mode.

I am a very patient individual and if Fonzie and cew announced that the game's development would take longer than the set deadline date, it would not phase me in the least. However, looking at the situation previously concerning Pier Solar, I think the vast minority of people have an expectation that the game is going to be delivered on time. With this mind, I fully expect that the WaterMelon will probably present a set of votable options that will not effect their ability to produce the game by the deadline set. Afterall it is their reputation at stake!

Reputation, after all, is paramount! When I am dealing with a client,I always ensure that I meet or exceed their expectations. With this set goal in mind, , you guarantee that (1.) you have a satisfied customer and (2.) that the person will more than likely purchase a service later down the road. Going forward, I think that the WaterMelon team must meet the customers expectations and honor the imposed deadline set.

Personally, I've refrained from posting on the WM forums in order to avoid complicating matters or raising unnecessary issues. Something has to really be a matter of concern for me to voice my concerns. When the game is released I expect that I will recieved a polished product sans the bugs and that will deliver a very satisfying experience for the money that I have invested. If the game meets this criteria, I'll be a happy camper.

[Joe Redifer]

I suggested this long ago, using the Sega CD for enhanced sound if it were present without a disc. With memory prices as low as they are these days I don't see why it would be too much of an issue. You see 8+GB USB sticks in check out lines selling for a dollar or two but Watermelon needs at least a guaranteed $11,000 more to make the game 6 megabytes. Perhaps someone could explain the technical reasons why my enhanced Sega CD sound idea wouldn't be feasible.

[Barone]

Well, AFAIK you need some specific rom access timing in order to get a game working on your Genesis. You could use "8+GB USB sticks" but it would be an Everdrive like and more complex, something capable to replace the flash rom data with the next part of the game... and, well, it would be pretty crazy to develop a game for such device. The carts themselves would cost $150-$250 per unit? And how would they "fill" those 8GB with game data? The cost would be nonsense.
Taking the "normal" route you still would be limited by the Genesis hardware in terms of addressing capabilities and bandwidth...
When you pass the 32Mbit limit you have to use bank switch if you still want to be able to access the Sega CD. IDK exactly how far they could go using it, Chilly Willy could answer that but IDK if you could go larger than 64Mbit for the cartridge capacity... And it will always be a 32Mbit rom + 8/16/32Mbit rom. So the cartridge itself might have some noticeable cost. Then you have all the packaging stuff...

I still think that ask $11K for a 48Mbit is a dick move since, like I said before, a bigger cart would allow a technically superior game and it would be good for their own brand and reputation... But their business model seems to have changed from "We'll do it now and see what happens..." to "Give us enough money and we will do it for you.".

[SpaceFlea]

I still think that ask $11K for a 48Mbit is a dick move

Technically though, that's just 220 more people pre-ordering the game. And, I could knock a K off myself, but I'm waiting to see what other scalers arise before I make my drop. Yes, it's annoying, but it's far from a dick move IMO.

[Barone]

Well, "dick move" can sound very offensive, IDK... As I'm a foreign speaker I don't have the exact idea of how offensive some bad words can sound in your country...
You could simply read it as "bad move" but with some strong feeling of let down since they did the scaler like: 4-8-16-32-48.

But I agree about the rest. I think that we can have a "boom" of new investors as soon as they show some demo or even some sprites and concepts.

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

agostinhobaroners, there is still enough time for the project to garner more investors. So far, both polls included the option and if you check the edited poll now, if is still listed as an option. And I project that the WaterMelon team will include it in subsequent polls. I think, we will see a impetus of new investors as soon as they post a still shot or video of the game. If the project looks promising, people will invest gems/money into the game.

[Zebbe]

I still think that ask $11K for a 48Mbit is a dick move since, like I said before, a bigger cart would allow a technically superior game and it would be good for their own brand and reputation...

Obviously. But a bigger cart will cost much more to produce and all the game content to fill it even more. Going from 32M to 64M would have been a far bigger and more expensive step to take, perhaps too grand so the investments can't reach it. Thus, a 48M step in between is a good thing.

But their business model seems to have changed from "We'll do it now and see what happens..." to "Give us enough money and we will do it for you.".

It's always been the latter, if you want to go the sarcastic route.

[Joe Redifer]

Filling all of that space with streaming audio wouldn't be very expensive. TmEE did it for free and took him next to no time at all.

Don't want to stream music? Well how about fully-voiced cut scenes?

[sheath]

As far as I have seen, to the Genesis, the Sega CD is just another game cartridge. The Genesis can "see" anything the Sega CD can send to it in 256KB chunks every cycle. That would basically mean that the Genesis could display anything the Sega CD could pre-render on the fly. I also thought I read recently that the Sega CD can DMA straight to the Genesis VDP, which would probably be the only way the Sub CPU could ever be used for game logic, AI, physics and whatnot.

As I understand it, a game designed to use the Sega CD's 68000 as the central processor would be programmed entirely differently than a Genesis game would be, and somewhat outside of the simplest intended use of the Sega CD in general. Essentially, the Sega CD is a super high end chipped cart with a CD-ROM drive.

[matteus]

Filling all of that space with streaming audio wouldn't be very expensive. TmEE did it for free and took him next to no time at all.

Don't want to stream music? Well how about fully-voiced cut scenes?

where'd i sign up to be one of the voice overs? haha

[Barone]

Obviously. But a bigger cart will cost much more to produce and all the game content to fill it even more. Going from 32M to 64M would have been a far bigger and more expensive step to take, perhaps too grand so the investments can't reach it. Thus, a 48M step in between is a good thing.



It's always been the latter, if you want to go the sarcastic route.

That wasn't the sarcastic route, Zebbe. The way WM did with the first game was totally crazy and it was clearly a kamikaze route.
The change was more than expected.

I like how you just quoted that part since I wrote several lines to explain that Joe's idea was "undoable" from a business point of view...