Great ideas, poor implementation?

[Thenewguy]

I really don't like these threads very much, they always make me question whether the SNES/Genesis trully are as equal as I'm always saying they are, they seem to highlight that most Genesis games are inherently flawed in one crucial area.

I think maybe a nicer thread would be "what Genesis games do you think are perfect in gameplay, music, graphics, length, and difficulty, and pacing"

Though I guess people would just start disagreeing with each other anyway

[StarMist]

I really don't like these threads very much, they always make me question whether the SNES/Genesis trully are as equal as I'm always saying they are, they seem to highlight that most Genesis games are inherently flawed in one crucial area.

Most SNES games are inherently flawed in two.

I think maybe a nicer thread would be "what Genesis games do you think are perfect in gameplay, music, graphics, length, and difficulty, and pacing"

We have one of those--maybe not restricted to MD--I believe titled "Your 10/10 Games"; I was toying with reviving it but please anticipate me.

[sheath]

I was about to say something about this kind of complaint thread boiling down to conjecture about presentation. It seems that people want to multiply the confusion with even more ineffable qualities. Pacing and difficulty relative to what? What is the standard for these things?

I can think of some great games that failed only because the presentation didn't reach the broadest audience. I can think of some okay games that could have been great games to me, but fell short because the "triforce" of Art direction, Music and Sound, and Gameplay just didn't hook me. Chakan, Ecco and a number of popular franchises fit this bill for me. One thing I am not willing to do is label the approach "bad" or even insufficient just because it didn't strike a cord with me.

[Thenewguy]

Most SNES games are inherently flawed in two.

No, 1st party SNES games at least are clearly very rarely flawed in any of those crucial areas, most of them clearly play well, most of them have both nice graphics, and nice music, most of them have a good difficulty pacing, are long, and have battery saves.

One other thing which is instantly noticeable when you read through these threads, when you guys pick holes in these Genesis games you do it very well, and are very concise, but when you do it to SNES games your arguments are just about always very vague, and paper thin on content "that game obviously sucks" or "the baby makes an annoying noise so the entire game is clearly awful" would be good examples of this.

[Curryman123]

MUSHA:-long boring levels with piece of cake bosses. Few interesting weapons. No satisfying explosions; just simple puffs.

GOLDEN AXE II:-The enemies are too damn cheap in this game, and it doesn't look any better than the first one.

[StarMist]

1st off, my SNES comment was just razzing.

No, 1st party SNES games at least are clearly very rarely flawed in any of those crucial areas, most of them clearly play well, most of them have both nice graphics, and nice music, most of them have a good difficulty pacing, are long, and have battery saves.

Many of Nintendo's hype games are amongst the worst of the SNES along with Square's games (I do like later and earlier Square but everything they made on SNES and SFam is awful) and Killer Instinct. F-Zero, Mario Kart, and Zelda LttP would be the exceptions, but all the Marios are terrible. I don't know whether you're counting Rare but the DKCs are impaired by progressively uglier sprites, both the playable characters' and the foes'. Sega handily outproduced them in the 16 bit era; rather the SNES's advantage lies in 3rd party games, such as those from Enix, Konami, Capcom, and a bunch of smaller teams, whereas Sega pretty much just had Taito and EA.

One other thing which is instantly noticeable when you read through these threads, when you guys pick holes in these Genesis games you do it very well, and are very concise, but when you do it to SNES games your arguments are just about always very vague, and paper thin on content "that game obviously sucks" or "the baby makes an annoying noise so the entire game is clearly awful" would be good examples of this.

Perhaps you just incline more towards the SNES. Baby Mario certainly does annoyingly pule throughout the entire game, making it awful the entire time one plays with the sound on; playing so long a game w/o native sound is certainly annoying. I think your memory is just being selective and that you're wrongly lumping me in with these "guys" (the whole membership? really?); I like quite a number of SNES games--and when I've finally taken the time to properly familiarise with the SNES/SFam library I wager I'll like more of its games than the Genesis's but the Genesis will remain with the better titles unless Nintendo had a heavy lineup of 16 bit sleeper masterpieces--but for that matter couldn't always tell you precisely what's good about them. Your "good examples" are very vague and paper thin on content. You're also much too impressionable.

[NeoZeedeater]

I really don't like these threads very much, they always make me question whether the SNES/Genesis trully are as equal as I'm always saying they are, they seem to highlight that most Genesis games are inherently flawed in one crucial area.

I think maybe a nicer thread would be "what Genesis games do you think are perfect in gameplay, music, graphics, length, and difficulty, and pacing"

Though I guess people would just start disagreeing with each other anyway

Most games on any system have at least one major flaw. Games that fit into a checklist of doing every aspect well (like Shinobi III or Super Metroid for Genesis/SNES examples) are the exceptions. It doesn't really matter, though. A game (or movie, book, music album, etc..) can have flaws and be brilliant anyway.

[Thenewguy]

Your "good examples" are very vague and paper thin on content.

I dunno, Super Metroid, Secret of Mana, Super Mario World, Mega Man X2, Terranigma, Super Turrican 2, Super Mario Kart, Link to the Past, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 6, Lufia II?

None of those seem to have any crucial issues with one of the fundamental areas of game design.

You're also much too impressionable.

Not really, at the end of the day, when Kamahl says Landstalker needs a shadow, he's very right, and I can see this, when he criticises Kid Chameleon for lacking in graphical presentation he's right, I don't agree with every point he makes as a lot of that is subjective anyway (Flink has excellent character design as far as I'm concerned, its the movement speed that's the issue pulling it back from being a 9/10), and when you guys make up some weak as hell argument about some SNES game and I disagree then I also just ignore it, it just so happens that you lot do a much more convincing job of hating on Mega Drive games than SNES games.

EDIT: You know what, I'm really not keen on carrying on this line of thought, to be honest I'm not really sure how much I even go along with it, I was more thinking out loud, like I said before, I just really don't like these threads

[StarMist]

I dunno, Super Metroid, Secret of Mana, Super Mario World, Mega Man X2, Terranigma, Super Turrican 2, Super Mario Kart, Link to the Past, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 6, Lufia II?

None of those seem to have any crucial issues with one of the fundamental areas of game design.

Don't know why you mentioned a Capcom game or an Enix game in here given my previous exceptions.

Not really, at the end of the day, when Kamahl says Landstalker needs a shadow, he's very right, and I can see this, when he criticises Kid Chameleon for lacking in graphical presentation he's right, I don't agree with every point he makes as a lot of that is subjective anyway

It's all entirely subjective. And Landstalker doesn't need a shadow at all. And there's nothing wrong with KC's presentation unless by its 'lack' you mean its uniqueness--I don't know your graphical tastes too well but Kamahl tends to like things very bright and florid (eg such as Terranigma), yet most 16 bit games on either console are a drab or chintzy mess, or are just overcoloured and oversimple in a trashy way (Ferias Frustradas do whatever Woody Woodpecker's called in Brazil), so I'm glad KC has very clean cut stylized graphics that just happen to be a competent representation of what a VR VG world might look like in terms other than Tron's/MSG VRM's/Rez's.

[Thenewguy]

there's nothing wrong with KC's presentation unless by its 'lack' you mean its uniqueness

Dude, the protagonist is ugly as hell, its completely embarassing how hard the designers were trying to make the character look "cool", whilst completely failing to give him an actual personality, I'd say he's like poochie from the Simpsons, but Poochie from the Simpsons actually looked pretty cool LOL.

Kid Chameleon's issue is art design, the level environments just aren't that imaginative, now from a level design perspective the game is totally top tier IMO, but artisty wise it just isn't there.

And this coming from a huge Kid Chameleon fan who played it off and on for like 10 years, sat down and completed the whole thing in one sitting, and still puts it on every now and then.

[StarMist]

Dude, the protagonist is ugly as hell, its completely embarassing how hard the designers were trying to make the character look "cool", whilst completely failing to give him an actual personality, I'd say he's like poochie from the Simpsons, but Poochie from the Simpsons actually looked pretty cool LOL.

He just looks like any other fubbsy little superdeformed character you evidently admire in a 16 bit Final Fantasy or Lufia game. Yeah he was probably supposed to be something like Poochie, or Chad or whatever that human character from that episode was ("Yo Mr S"), but the sprite size is compact and the world unreal enough it doesn't matter. He's not a walking egg or star at least. No he doesn't have any personality w/o a mask but that's fine as the rest of the game does. You and I just disagree on certain aspects of presentation; eg, and I'm really not reaching here, FF# anything on SNES ranges from ugly to atrocious, Chrono Trigger has hideous sprites and insipid artwork (The End of Time is the lone area I like apart from a couple waterfalls and the famous bridge till that stupid dragon mech appears), and SMW is flat out unfinished looking.

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

"TaleSpin" was a huge disappointment. It was based on a 1990s cartoon that I was familiar with. The music that plays at the introduction of the game is quite good. But after playing the game I felt that the detail of each of the various sprites could have been done alot better. Also the game's overall design is quite boring and at times frustrating. The game never captures your attention. Instead, you end up asking yourself what other game should I play next rather that playing it to completion.

[Kamahl]

Now, had you shown a screenshot of Chakan, the greatest swordsman of both earth and hell, being slain by an unarmed rat that would have been self explanatory.

That's precisely what I meant by self explanatory.

The problems with Sonic 3D are the loose controls, the maps that don't favor speed, the boring special stages, the birds, the lack of more playable characters and the lack of a permanent homing attack (which the game really needed).
The idea of an isometric Sonic is actually pretty cool.

Kid chameleon the problem with the costumes is mostly visual yes ("yeah... I know I need this costume... but... fuck, I wish I wasn't using that crap"), although their execution leaves a lot to be desired too (the way they're all relevant is great however).

The shadow would not have cost 8 more megs

And the graphics in wolfchild are ok.

(Since it was brought up, Super Turrican 2 is pretty flawed too, most of the minigames are horrible, and there's too many of them. Also it has the grappling hook everyone hates).

[Mark Robert]

Beyond Oasis : Action Adventure + Beat'em Up? OMG DREAM COME TRUE! Oh wait... it's mediocre in both areas... sigh... (The fact that despite being mediocre in both areas the game is still as freaking awesome as it is, says a lot about how awesome the combo is).

Sonic Spinball : Cool idea, but it's shit.

Alisia Dragoon : The lightning just never felt right, and the pet dragons are rather lame. The idea of a lightning shooting hot babe with upgradeable pet dragons is brilliant.

Ranger-X : While by far one of my most favorite games ever, the level order is very poorly chosen (taking into account the light mechanic), the bike mechanic is a pointless annoyance, and the controls (while cool) could be much better (like pressing A to keep firing in the same direction, instead of A for one side and C for the other)

Eternal Champions : Brilliant idea, poor execution (bad graphics, cheap difficulty).

The Asterix Games : Asterix is an awesome idea, ultra close uppercuts that mean you always get hit are not however.

Battletech : Giant mech wrecking shit? Win. Shame it's so awkward to control.

The Ooze : Pretty cool idea but it would have been substantially better if you got powers as you recovered your DNA or something, game is extremely repetitive.

Chakan : Self explanatory.

Cyborg Justice : Self explanatory.

Exile : Another "mix" game where both halves are mediocre.

Kid Chameleon : Too many levels, some lame costumes, boring graphics and music, lame main character, meh. Great idea though.

Landstalker : Ruined by the lack of a simple shadow.

Light Crusader : Poor art style, lame story, brilliant idea for the magic system.

Mazin Saga : Beat'em Up with fighter style boss battles? Awesome! Shame the boss battles suck so much.

Flink : Mostly lame spells, really lame, main character looks terrible. The idea however is soo good, a little magic kid discovering and creating new spells to face a great evil wizard.

Phantasy Star 3 : What StarMist said.

Puggsy : The whole puzzle mechanic is really cool, but I hate the way you can adjust the item you have picked up, and other implementation details could be a lot better.

Sonic 3D Blast : Self explanatory.

Splatterhouse 3 : Brilliant idea. The ghosts that steal your weapon the first time you lose it are not however. The ultra strict time limit also prevents searching for weapons. Mix both and you drop from an A to a B.

Sub Terrania : Also a brilliant idea, too hard for it's own good. Needed more health and fuel pickups, and cooler weapons.

Wolfchild : Werewolf mechanic is cool. Tying it to your health bar isn't cool.

Wow, you really knock a lot of greats in your list. Beyond Oasis, Ranger X, Kid Chameleon, Alisia Dragoon, Flink, and Sub Terrania are really awesome games. Sub Terrania is admittably hard at first because you have to acquire a feel for the controls and level layouts but once that learning curve is conquered, it's really an amazing game.

[Alianger]

Battletech : Giant mech wrecking shit? Win. Shame it's so awkward to control.

One way to make the game more playable is using a dual analog controller and an emulator, then playing it in dual mode by yourself with remapped controls.
It's only 5 stages long though and there's a lot of trial & error.