By your logic, Sonic R is the same type of game as Sonic 2 because it features many of the same characters and you can pick up rings.
By your logic, Sonic R is the same type of game as Sonic 2 because it features many of the same characters and you can pick up rings.
Old school PS ftw
Watch your back, shoot straight, and never cut a deal with the dragon. (from Shadowrun)
I never said it was the same exact type of game. That's the problem here. You are saying what makes a Phantasy Star game a Phantasy Star game is entirely based on it's specific genre.
Your example is flawed. Sonic R is not a 2D Side-Scrolling Sonic, I don't think anyone here will try to tell you otherwise. It is still a Sonic game however. It still has characteristics that can be identified as only Sonic. Phantasy Star Online may not be an old school turn based RPG on the Genesis. It's still a Phantasy Star game though. It still as characteristics that can be identified only as Phantasy Star. That's the point.
Phantasy Star's characteristics are its theme (man vs dark force), its setting (poshlost mixture of scifi amenities and evils; the charming cities, the intriguing artifacts/dungeons, the evil biomonsters), its typical characters, and a dreamy-sad atmosphere which was fairly consistent through 2-3-4. Last but not the least characteristic is the battle system and its elements: the ability to select a group type to attack but not the individual within that group, gun advantage against mechs and highly armored foes, an unusually open equipment selection for each character along with dual equipping (two knives instead of a sword/gun, two staves instead of a staff and shield, two shields forsaking the capacity to attack), an unusually relevant support magic system, along with certain idiosyncratic spell developments (res, gires, nares; zan, gizan, nazan; &c). What formed the groundwork of all these elements was the menu system. There's no need for PS combat to involve turn based combat, it need only be menu based. Real time would be wholly possible in somethng like Blue Breaker's system (think Star Ocean 2 minus half the mess), essentially with characters going into the automatic battle mode PS2 has for a couple rounds before they could be given a new command. There are innumerable gradations that could've been done here, but the point to keeping the menu system is that in classic RPGs battle composes the body of character personality. Amy is a shy, meek nurse: in combat she chiefly defends, uses support magic/objects, and heals. Rolf is a soldier and a leader: his combat magic is the most rounded and ultimately the most powerful, which likewise describes his weapon class the swords. Rudo is a rugged hunter: he takes the least maintenance in combat and in certain none too rare circumstances is the most effective fighter. Nei is a half monster/animal: untamed, she refuses the more cumbersome equipment Rolf offers her, and she fights like a beast with near extensions of her hands and surprsing power. And so on. Phantasy Star III modified this degree of distinction through its malleable tek system (the 4 coloured box) but it was pretty much the same; PS4 returned to form a bit but slightly blurred everything with its shortness and ease. One other thing to menu based combat is that its presentation is dramatic. Whether one's party is visible and has full actions (PS2) or invisible with mere splash effects (PS3, games like Might and Magic, AD&D, Soul Hackers, so on), the enemy is presented large and upfront and with total absorption rather than one's just running about in the scenery. That hack and slash style presentation is what makes PSO and others of its sort so unengaging.
Uh... I strongly apologize if this sounds rude, but I really am struggling to read that. There are no paragraph breaks, which makes that very difficult to read without it seeming like an overwhelming wall of text. Sorry, but just wanted to point that out since it seems you're making some detailed points.
Um, where did anyone say anything to the contrary? Does the gameplay, presentation and atmosphere completely change when you play it online? That's what's being debated here, not how well offline PSO/PSU plays compared to online PSO/PSU.As for PSU, PC and PS2 could play together. The only reason 360 couldn't play with them was because of Microsoft and Xbox Live. Which by the way PSU has an offline mode that's free to play. And the PC version also has a free mode to allow you to play online for free. No offense, but if you guys played these games seriously, you'd be well aware of these facts.
That doesn't mean they have to snub everyone else. It's not like these games are so massively complex in scope that they can't spare the resources to make a traditional RPG, something they've been doing literally for decades.As for the portable games, you have no one but the fans to blame for those. Fans were begging for years for a PSO on their DS or PSP. Sega gave it to them.
Perhaps, but I was judging by what was in the actual games, not the concept art they're based on. Many things in the original PS games don't look much like their concept art.As for Pioneer 2 not feeling like Classic Phantasy Star, sure it might not look like the primitive graphics the Master System and early Genesis games used, but it does look rather close to the concept art for Phantasy Star II:
This was the same PSU game that plays nothing like the original games and is pay-to-play? How many PS fans do you think actually paid to see all that? I'm sure a lot more never got to because Sega changed the entire style of the series and then charged to play it. That goes back to my original point of alienating fans. It's a shame then, that fans would have to make those kinds of adaptions just to experience ANYTHING with the PS name on it, especially when they've been clamoring for a true sequel for years.And PSUs towns again feel similar to those from Phantasy Star 4 as well as the concept art for Phantasy Star 2. And there are more variations of the Cities. First of all theres the Episode 2 and 3 versions of Pioneer 2. In PSU there's about 4 different cities and countless different lobbies and hubs.
The difference is much more notable when nothing else in the game resembles the franchise on which it's based. I'm a lot more forgiving of PSIV not having the exact same enemies as PS1 or 2 because the game is a direct sequel and plays the same. When you change everything that makes a series well-known and then add some casual references to the source material, it makes it seem more like a homage than an evolution.As for enemies there's Rappies, Grass Assassins, Sand Worms, Robots, and plenty of other enemies that may not be direct references, but still have a look and feel of Phantasy Star. For the record, I don't remember there being too many similar enemies in the classic Phantasy Stars either, save for a select few memorable ones and bosses.
FF11 is no more a true FF game than PSO and PSU are true PS games. I'd think the sales numbers on it and the unmitigated disaster that FF14 has been would be evidence enough of that. Comparing FF1 to FF13 only makes my point, as they're both still single-player, turn-based RPGs. In fact, the battle system in FF13 is based on the one introduced in FFIV. It's been tweaked and adapted, but it's still familiar and in the same vein as the games that came before it. See? Square changes the characters and worlds and still manages to keep the series together because the core elements of what makes it so successful are kept in place. PSO went in an entirely different direction that plays nothing like its predecessors. Sega didn't just make PS "work" in 3D and online, it completely changed the game. If you consider a single-character button masher is the same as a traditional, turn-based RPG, then I don't know what to tell you.As for gameplay, I never said they were the same. However just because now it's a real time combat online RPG doesn't make it any less of a Phantasy Star game. Does FFXI being online make it less of a Final Fantasy? Do the dramatic changes in the battle systems from FF1 to FF13 make them any less Final Fantasies? Sega changing Phantasy Star to make it work in the new era of 3D and online gaming doesn't make the games any less Phantasy Star than their predecessors. The atmosphere is still there. It's just a multiplayer online adventure as opposed to single player RPG. These complaints seem to be based entirely on PSO v1 on the Dreamcast and nothing else.
And my complaints are on the games I've played, which are both DC PSOs, Xbox PSO, PS Zero on DS, and PSU on the Xbox 360. I think that qualifies me enough to form an opinion.
All the games I mentioned above were played online. I beat PSU's single-player and played it online as well. So yes, I do know what I'm talking about. It doesn't take away from my point though. Do PSO/PSU become entirely new games with different gameplay once you go online? No. I'm sure the expansion for PSU is probably an awesome PSU game, but it's not a traditional PS game, which is my whole point. I'm also wondering why, if this PSU is such a great way to go, that Sega never released a sequel? The servers for the PS2 and PC versions are shut down as well, so if you don't own a portable or want to pay on Xbox Live, no Phantasy Star at all for you.Melf, you said you put 400 hours into PSO on the Dreamcast and Xbox and beat PSU Episode 1. Well guess what, I put well over 2000 hours into GC PSO on ONE character. I put even more than that into PSO:BB and even more than that into PSU on PC and 360. I ask did you even try these games online? That's where the bulk of the games content resides. That's where all the unique quests, the rest of the story, the items, the enemies, the new areas, etc. all are. If you only played offline Episode 1 of PSU, then you only experienced less than 20% of what the game had to offer.
No one's saying they aren't Phantasy Star games (if you read my original post again, you'll see that I said they felt more like side stories). What I'm saying is that I don't consider them to be direct sequels or the true evolution of the franchise because they are so completely different than the originals. The online direction and tradtional RPG formats should not be mutually exclusive. Going back to your Final Fantasy comparison, did Square nix the traditional RPGs once FF11 came out? No, and why do you think they didn't?We are not debating whether or not these games are sequels to Phantasy Star IV. We are debating if they are Phantasy Star games, meaning do they have a distinct look and feel that can be defined as Phantasy Star. And I say they have it.
I'd have to ask you if you've played the MP games, as they're essentially just 3D Metroids. EVERYTHING that made the originals is there: the exploration, the same abilities, the same characters (not mere references) - everything has remianed. Prime is definitely a true sequel to the original 2D games. The only difference is that they made it first-person. Metroid is actually mroe of an example of the direction I think Sega should have gone with the PS series - keep everything fans love intact, just move it to 3D, so again, your example only serves to strengthen my point.Yes, they are not turn based RPGs anymore, but that's gameplay, not atmosphere and character. That's like saying Metroid Prime doesn't have the look and feel of a Metroid game because it's not a 2D side scroller.
Would you consider Sonic 3D Blast a true sequel to Sonic & Knuckles? Sega didn't, hence Sonic 4 being released as a download title.Your example is flawed. Sonic R is not a 2D Side-Scrolling Sonic, I don't think anyone here will try to tell you otherwise. It is still a Sonic game however. It still has characteristics that can be identified as only Sonic. Phantasy Star Online may not be an old school turn based RPG on the Genesis. It's still a Phantasy Star game though. It still as characteristics that can be identified only as Phantasy Star. That's the point.
I think we're probably just arguing the same thing from different directions though. I do believe that PSO is a PS game, just not part of the main series and not a true sequel. I hope we someday get a PS5, but with today's Sega...
I never said PSO or PSU were sequels to Phantasy Star IV. I am saying they are however Phantasy Star games. You guys somehow misinterpreted that to mean they were sequels to Phantasy Star IV. That's not my fault. Sonic R and Sonic 3D Blast may not be true sequels to Sonic 3 & Knuckles, they are however still Sonic games and have the characteristics of Sonic games to back that claim up.
PSO and PSU may not be direct sequels to Phantasy Star IV, but they still have many of the characteristics required to make them be Phantasy Star games. As for your example of removing names, items, setting, etc. from PSO/PSU, what would remain of Phantasy Star IV if you changed the characters names, the setting, the names of items and spells, the enemies, etc.? You'd be left with a generic turn based RPG that would feel nothing like Phantasy Star.
And yes, the PSO/PSU games do change dramatically online. For example, in PSU there's 2 more episodes of single player story that's only available online that gives more character development and plot. There's also tons of side story quests that again give you more plot development. As for no sequels, they did make them, it's called the expansion pack Ambition of the Illuminus which makes the online Episode 2 story available offline, and then there's the portable series which take place after Episode 3 of PSU and in between Episode 1 and 2 of PSU.
PSOBB's online mode added multiplayer story quests on top of the single player quests that give the game a bit more plot. And Episode 4 is rather story driven itself.
And again, the different releases weren't done to alienate the fanbase. The reason for multiple releases has to do with the limitations that became evident of their platforms. You couldn't update PSO on consoles without releasing a new version on a new disc. Meaning you couldn't even patch bugs people were using to cheat and hack other players. They tried releasing new versions, but that didn't help the situation since you still had tons of people on the older versions. Finally they put it on PC and moved all player data to the servers. This fixed pretty much all the severe hacking and cheating issues but at the cost of making it incompatible with previous versions for obvious reasons. There were still plenty of people who moved to those versions.
Before PSOBB came out there were thousands on GC and Xbox PSO. After PSOBB came out there were under 100 people still left on those versions as they had all moved to PSOBB. With PSU, there's well over 200,000 players on the US Xbox servers, and there were about that much on the US PC/PS2 servers as well. The Japanese servers have significantly more than that though. Considering that none of classic Phantasy Star titles ever sold over 1 million copies, I'd say it's safe to say that most of the Classic Phantasy Star fanbase was in fact playing PSO/PSU online.
Oh, and as for the towns in the classic games not looking like the concept art, that has more to do with the Master System and Genesis not really being able to properly show those concepts. Do you really wish that a new Phantasy Star would have towns that all look a like with the same buildings sparsely repeated over and over?
Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 03-27-2012 at 10:36 AM.
Judging by my experience with playing with Japanese players, most type out stuff in their own language. I recall 1 or 2 players that had limited English skills and would do their best to try to speak with you, but those were very few.
I'm not buying a game that I won't understand the language in, especially one that is based around being social.
I doubt it. I also like to play the single player missions. It would also be nice to be able to understand what is being said in those little side stories.
I supported PSU on the PS2 for almost a year. Sega dropped the ball on that game and pretty much the earlier versions as well.
They could of at least offered a North American/English version for the PC crowd but they didn't. Would a Steam version have been that hard to deliver?
Um, there was an English version of PC PSU.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)