Phantasy Star Online 2 will be Free to Play!

[Melf]

I never said PSO or PSU were sequels to Phantasy Star IV. I am saying they are however Phantasy Star games. You guys somehow misinterpreted that to mean they were sequels to Phantasy Star IV. That's not my fault. Sonic R and Sonic 3D Blast may not be true sequels to Sonic 3 & Knuckles, they are however still Sonic games and have the characteristics of Sonic games to back that claim up.

I think this is where our arguments got tangled. I have no problem with the PSO/PSU games existing. My problem is that they replaced the traditional RPGs instead of complimenting them. I personally don't feel like this is a direction with enough substance to take over entirely for the original series, just as I'd hate regular 2D Sonic games to be replaced by Sonic R sequels.

PSO and PSU may not be direct sequels to Phantasy Star IV, but they still have many of the characteristics required to make them be Phantasy Star games. As for your example of removing names, items, setting, etc. from PSO/PSU, what would remain of Phantasy Star IV if you changed the characters names, the setting, the names of items and spells, the enemies, etc.? You'd be left with a generic turn based RPG that would feel nothing like Phantasy Star.

That's not a very solid argument, since the games you're defending depend specifically on the brand and popularity of the original games, whose characteristics can't be questioned. Those games came first and established everything PSO/PSU are built on. The ones that have to get the nature of the series right are the ones that follow, not the originators.

And yes, the PSO/PSU games do change dramatically online. For example, in PSU there's 2 more episodes of single player story that's only available online that gives more character development and plot. There's also tons of side story quests that again give you more plot development.

I have several problems with this though. First, the actual gameplay itself doesn't change online. The game doesn't control one way offline and another online, so it's essentially the same thing either way. Second, you have to PAY monthly to access all those extra episodes and content that make a full storyline and develop characters. I don't have an Xbox Live subscription, so the only way I can experience everything PSU has to offer is to spend $50 to get my 360 online and then pay a monthly fee on top of that. The original series gave you the entire story in one package for one price. I know the nature of online games is to make you pay as you go, but that's just another example of how different the new PS games are from the old and shouldn't be considered direct sequels or anything similar.

As for no sequels, they did make them, it's called the expansion pack Ambition of the Illuminus which makes the online Episode 2 story available offline, and then there's the portable series which take place after Episode 3 of PSU and in between Episode 1 and 2 of PSU.

You said above that Ambition of the Illuminus wasn't a new game. I get your meaning though, but again, it goes back to the extra content vs. complete package differences.

And again, the different releases weren't done to alienate the fanbase. The reason for multiple releases has to do with the limitations that became evident of their platforms. You couldn't update PSO on consoles without releasing a new version on a new disc. Meaning you couldn't even patch bugs people were using to cheat and hack other players. They tried releasing new versions, but that didn't help the situation since you still had tons of people on the older versions. Finally they put it on PC and moved all player data to the servers. This fixed pretty much all the severe hacking and cheating issues but at the cost of making it incompatible with previous versions for obvious reasons. There were still plenty of people who moved to those versions.

Well, no they didn't purposely try to alienate the fanbase, but just look at your explanation! People on different versions of the same games, version incompatibilities, different content on different platforms. How could anyone actually play all the PSO content without playing across several platforms? In contrast, the original games only required one game to own at a time. You didn't have people playing different versions of PSIV on different hardware. If you own PSIV, you own EVERYTHING that goes with it.

This is more an issue of Sega not getting its act together with regards of how to move this franchise. They release a bunch of different versions on console and then move the series to portables. Console owners now have to pay to play all the online content or buy a whole new machine. Another problem is that once the servers go down, there goes your game. A traditional RPG can be replayed forever.

I will say that if Sega were to release a complete version of PSO for play on PSN, I'd buy it and play the hell out of it. It's all the PS love we're going to get, unless they decide to actually make a PSV, which we know will never happen.

Before PSOBB came out there were thousands on GC and Xbox PSO. After PSOBB came out there were under 100 people still left on those versions as they had all moved to PSOBB. With PSU, there's well over 200,000 players on the US Xbox servers, and there were about that much on the US PC/PS2 servers as well. The Japanese servers have significantly more than that though. Considering that none of classic Phantasy Star titles ever sold over 1 million copies, I'd say it's safe to say that most of the Classic Phantasy Star fanbase was in fact playing PSO/PSU online.

I don't think everyone who played the original games just upped and moved online, specifically because of the differences I've mentioned. Again though, what options do they have now? Pay a ton to play PSU or buy the portable versions. Sega has indirectly alienated the fanbase by severely limiting access to the games. I don't own a Vita, so no PS for me. My only option is the PC version (which I'm considering, especially since it's free to play). If this is the direction they're going to keep the series going, then I really would like a dedicated console version.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

360 PSU does not require Xbox Live Gold. You can play it online with a Silver account. You just need to pay the $10 Monthly Fee. This is a common misconception people have about the game. Also the Japanese PC version has a free option. There's no level cap or anything, you just can't trade with other players or go to your room.

For all the PSO content if you played Blue Burst, you got everything except Episode 3 and that's only because Episode 3 was a completely different game. The other versions and incompatibilities are just the result of the sad truth of consoles not being able to handle the updates required for an online RPG.

That's not a very solid argument, since the games you're defending depend specifically on the brand and popularity of the original games, whose characteristics can't be questioned. Those games came first and established everything PSO/PSU are built on. The ones that have to get the nature of the series right are the ones that follow, not the originators.

When Phantasy Star IV came out, was it not one of the games that followed the series groundwork laid before it? What if they went with something different and made it an Action RPG instead of a Turn based one? Would it still be Phantasy Star IV? What if they changed the setting, story, characters, enemies, items, spells, etc.? Would it still be Phantasy Star IV?

EDIT:

Sorry for the confusion. I meant the next chapter, not PSU.

Do you mean Ambition of the Illuminus, or PSO2? If you mean Ambition of the Illuminus, it too got a US PC Release. For PSO2 it's too early to tell, it may get a US release or the JP client may have code in there to make it use English depending on your PC settings. We just don't know yet until the game releases. However there are plenty of US players who intend to get the Japanese version of PSO2 if there is no US release.

[TheSonicRetard]

The other versions and incompatibilities are just the result of the sad truth of consoles not being able to handle the updates required for an online RPG.

To clarify, you are speaking directly about the xbox 360 here, not all modern consoles. The problem in particular you are speaking about is that microsoft limits developers to ONE free patch update per game. Meaning that they can only update the game one time without charging their customers. It's a major sticking point with companies like valve, and loads of developers have complained about it. It is, sadly, one of the big reasons why stuff like on-disc DLC for fighting games is prominent - because they can't push free updates later on to ensure everybody has every character to load up when they go online. It really, really sucks, and considering XBL is supposed to be the best online environment for console games, it's a baffling, self-imposed tech limitation.

PSN doesn't have this limitation. It has it's own set of problems - namely that developers have to either host their content themselves or pay every single time they want to put up a free update - but sony doesn't limit the amount of free updates a company can push out. For companies like valve, which already has dedicated DD servers available, the way sony does things is a-ok.

Now, a few companies have cleverly figured out ways to get around this. Neversoft, for example, the makers of Mortal Kombat, they do what they call push-updates. That is, every time you connect to the online server for the game, it changes a bunch of stats for fighters and stores them on your HDD/memory card as a save file. This lets them tweak and rebalance the fighter, without having to spend their sole free update to keep the game competitive, which lets them hold onto it for major updates (should they ever be needed).

But yeah, really the only console which can't handle an MMO, is the Xbox 360. And it's entirely because of stupid restrictions microsoft self-imposes.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

I was referring to the Gamecube, Dreamcast, PS2, and Original Xbox with that comment actually.

[TheSonicRetard]

I was referring to the Gamecube, Dreamcast, PS2, and Original Xbox with that comment actually.

Ah. Well the issue still exists with the Xbox 360, at least.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

I know, that combined with the PS2 is what serverely limited Phantasy Star Universe. Thankfully the JP PC version dropped PS2 support last year and isn't linked with the 360 versions. So they can do what ever they want content wise, which is why JP PSU is now getting areas and items from the PSP games.

[QuickSciFi]

Well, you know how it is. Want to be one of those crazy-leveled-up members? You better start from day 1.

[gamevet]

Do you mean Ambition of the Illuminus, or PSO2? If you mean Ambition of the Illuminus, it too got a US PC Release. For PSO2 it's too early to tell, it may get a US release or the JP client may have code in there to make it use English depending on your PC settings. We just don't know yet until the game releases. However there are plenty of US players who intend to get the Japanese version of PSO2 if there is no US release.

No, was talking about the PSO that is the subject of the thread. I'm replying from my phone, so my options are limited.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Ah, well as I said, it's still a bit to early to tell. The game isn't even out yet in Japan.

[jerry coeurl]

I think this is where our arguments got tangled. I have no problem with the PSO/PSU games existing. My problem is that they replaced the traditional RPGs instead of complimenting them. I personally don't feel like this is a direction with enough substance to take over entirely for the original series, just as I'd hate regular 2D Sonic games to be replaced by Sonic R sequels.

THANK YOU! This is the point I keep trying to make and it's the one that Trekkies keeps ignoring. I don't have a problem with PSO existing, but to me it isn't Phantasy Star. No matter how many references and throwbacks it includes, it plays nothing like the Master System and Genesis games. They don't offer anywhere near the same type of experience, so to me it's a very poor substitute.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

It IS Phantasy Star though. It's just not a single player turn based Phantasy Star game. That's the point I keep trying to make. If they only criteria you use for defining what makes Phantasy Star be Phantasy Star is "Turn Based RPG on my Genesis", then you really need to go back and figure out what truly defines the characteristics of Phantasy Star.

[ThugsRook]

It IS Phantasy Star though. It's just not a single player turn based Phantasy Star game. That's the point I keep trying to make. If they only criteria you use for defining what makes Phantasy Star be Phantasy Star is "Turn Based RPG on my Genesis", then you really need to go back and figure out what truly defines the characteristics of Phantasy Star.

Phantasy Star is a Turn based RPG... not Quake.

[Melf]

360 PSU does not require Xbox Live Gold. You can play it online with a Silver account. You just need to pay the $10 Monthly Fee. This is a common misconception people have about the game. Also the Japanese PC version has a free option. There's no level cap or anything, you just can't trade with other players or go to your room.

That's nice that it doesn't require a Gold subscription, but still, $120 a year? Ouch. The Japanese PC version might be better, but for that I might as well wait for PSO 2 which will be free and in English.

For all the PSO content if you played Blue Burst, you got everything except Episode 3 and that's only because Episode 3 was a completely different game. The other versions and incompatibilities are just the result of the sad truth of consoles not being able to handle the updates required for an online RPG.

Wasn't EP 3 the one that played like a card game? Yet another direction taking the series farther away from its roots.

When Phantasy Star IV came out, was it not one of the games that followed the series groundwork laid before it? What if they went with something different and made it an Action RPG instead of a Turn based one? Would it still be Phantasy Star IV? What if they changed the setting, story, characters, enemies, items, spells, etc.? Would it still be Phantasy Star IV?

If that had happened, I'd be making the same complaints I am now. IF they removed everything you listed, It'd be PSIV only in name, as there would be nothing connecting it to the previous games in the series. However, I would accept it as an action/RPG game, providing it was true in everything else. That's not the case with the online games though, which are only barely related to the original series. As I said earlier, if you remove the name, there's really nothing connecting them to the original 4 games.

However there are plenty of US players who intend to get the Japanese version of PSO2 if there is no US release.

You don't think a situation like that would alienate fans? You don't think that the series having come to this possible scenario is evidence of Sega not really caring what fans think of what the series has become? I hope it at least gets a U.S. release (thought this was confirmed already), as I'd be inclined to get the PC version, providing Sega is smart enough to offer it over Steam.

[jerry coeurl]

It IS Phantasy Star though. It's just not a single player turn based Phantasy Star game. That's the point I keep trying to make.

Here, I'll say it slowly for you, since it seems to keep going over your head: That. Is. Not. The. Kind. Of. Phantasy. Star. That. I. Want. To. Play.



There is no storyline or character development in PSO... I certainly don't give a shit about Red Ring Rico and I'm never given a reason to. I want an epic story, memorable characters, a lengthy quest with a greater purpose than just endlessly grinding for better loot. The gameplay is a part of what's missing from PSO, but that's not the only thing!

If they only criteria you use for defining what makes Phantasy Star be Phantasy Star is "Turn Based RPG on my Genesis", then you really need to go back and figure out what truly defines the characteristics of Phantasy Star.

Putting words in my mouth, cool. I never said that turn-based combat was the ONLY defining characteristic of Phantasy Star, just that it was ONE of them. I am primarily concerned with how games play. PSO can cram in as many references to the original games as it wants to, but it plays completely differently, and if you can't see that then there's really no point in arguing this any further.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The problem with fans going to the Japanese version has nothing to do with fans being alienated by the games going from Traditional RPGs to online games or anything intentional on the team at Sega developing it or choice of platform. It has to do with Sega of America's poor handling of Phantasy Star Online and Phantasy Star Universe in the past. Sega of Japan loves their customers who play PSO/PSU. They give them updates, listen to their suggestions, and pretty much cater to what they want. It's Sega of America who historically doesn't care. This is one of those instances where you really had to be playing the games online and be part of the community to understand this logic.

And why would the game being on Steam make you more inclined to get it? It's already been announced that the PC Client will a free download from Sega.

If anything Episode 3 was a step back towards the series roots, by making the game more story driven and returning to a turn based battle system.

And as I said, what connects the online games to the classic games may not be the story or the gameplay, it's the atmosphere, the lore, the music, the art style, and every other aspect that defines what Phantasy Star is beyond a Turn based RPG taking place in the Algol system. After all it's highly possible with the finality of PSIV's ending that a PSV would likely be an entirely new story with a different setting similar to a new Final Fantasy. If that was the case would you consider that to be a new Phantasy Star game? Or would you consider it to not be a real Phantasy Star?

Putting words in my mouth, cool. I never said that turn-based combat was the ONLY defining characteristic of Phantasy Star

Yet it's almost the only one you seem to care about.

As for a more story driven game they have those. They're called Phantasy Star Universe, Phantasy Star Zero, and Phantasy Star Portable. You're entire argument seems to be based only on PSO version 1/2 on the Dreamcast.

The argument of it not being a real Phantasy Star game because it's not the game you wanted is childish as well. Sonic 4 and Sonic 2006 may not be the Sonic games I wanted, but I still acknowledge that they are in fact Sonic games.