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Thread: Is Forumula 1: Beyond the Limit really that bad?

  1. #31
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Jaguar XJ220 was also an Amiga game, and the Amiga version has much worse scaling. The Sega CD does have a faster CPU, but I think it's the scaling chip. Compare Jaguar XJ220 to Bloodshot or Road Rash (CD versions), which do not use the chip.


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  2. #32
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Jaguar XJ220 was also an Amiga game, and the Amiga version has much worse scaling. The Sega CD does have a faster CPU, but I think it's the scaling chip. Compare Jaguar XJ220 to Bloodshot or Road Rash (CD versions), which do not use the chip.
    Since Road Rash has the same chuggy framerate as the Genesis games, I have always supposed that it was running off the Genesis CPU, not the Sub CPU, using the exact same engine as the Genesis games in typical EA form. Bloodshot on Genesis is also no different than the Sega CD game from what I can tell. The objects scale well in Jaguar XJ220, but they also chug characteristically of the 68000's abilities even at 12.5 Mhz. Compare XJ220 to something like BC Racers (flat floors plus scaling objects) and it is a huge difference.

    It could be that they used the Graphics CoProcessor, I just see more evidence against that idea, including the line scrolling floors and object size and framerate, than I see for.
    Last edited by sheath; 04-17-2012 at 04:16 PM.
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  3. #33
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Since Road Rash has the same chuggy framerate as the Genesis games, I have always supposed that it was running off the Genesis CPU, not the Sub CPU, using the exact same engine as the Genesis games in typical EA form. Bloodshot on Genesis is also no different than the Sega CD game from what I can tell. The objects scale well in Jaguar XJ220, but they also chug characteristically of the 68000's abilities even at 12.5 Mhz. Compare XJ220 to something like BC Racers (flat floors plus scaling objects) and it is a huge difference.

    It could be that they used the Graphics CoProcessor, I just see more evidence against that idea, including the line scrolling floors and object size and framerate, than I see for.
    I don't see any chugging. Compare it to the Amiga version and watch the sprites. On Amiga, the sprites "jump around", whereas on Sega CD they have a smoother transition. I'm not sure what the floor has to do with anything, this isn't Mode 7.

    And Bloodshot is different between the two versions, although the difference isn't great.


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  4. #34
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Looking at the video of XJ220 I just posted, I'm really not sure that the scaling objects would be possible at all without the Graphics CoProcessor. I'm pretty sure those trackside objects would have run head long into the VDP's sprites per scanline limit, or at least I assume that is why no Genesis games have that many joined objects even if they were animated scaling objects. XJ220 does chug in certain scenes though, just not all that often.

    I haven't seen any difference in the graphics quality between the MD/Genesis and Sega CD versions of Bloodshot. I also haven't played either version extensively and would probably look for a significantly improved engine like Battlecorp for the Sega CD version.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

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  5. #35
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    For Bloodshot, I'm not finding the comparison images I've seen in the past, but here is a screenshot of the Mega Drive version:



    The CD version is "fixed" -- if you took a screenshot of it in the same location, it would not have that gobbledeguk on the left wall. I was told that the CD version fixed this problem because of the faster CPU, but I suppose for all I know it could just be a bug fix. But, it is present throughout the cartridge version of the game, so I would think that if it were a simple bug that could be fixed, they would've done so.


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  6. #36
    Hard Road! Raging in the Streets Barone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Similarly, I said that I thought XJ220 had to be using the CoProcessor, but it might have just been using the Sega CD's faster CPU to scale the objects. Road Rash does a fair job of scaling objects using just the Genesis CPU. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case and the Graphics CoProcessor just wasn't even used in XJ220.
    Sheath, no way!

    1st: There's no way for the Genesis or the Sega CD CPU or both together do such a smooth scaling as you see on the trackside objects using software scaling. Find me a single game on the Genesis doing a scaling with similar amount of resized sprites/frame ratio.

    2nd: You must be kidding about Road Rash. All games on the Genesis and the Sega CD one are an ugly mess, poorly programmed engines that scale like crap at a crawling framerate, using HORRIBLE colors and choppy as hell animation. Lotus II shows far superior software sprite scaling with much better framerate, at least in the single player mode. OutRun 2019 also shows much better trackside objects scaling and far superior framerate (despite of the western publisher fucking the original game by changing the speedometer to show stupid nonsense high speeds). In terms of color usage, speed sensation and multiplayer framerate none of them can even touch Street Racer. However, it has very simplified and sparse trackside ojects.

    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Jaguar XJ220 was also an Amiga game, and the Amiga version has much worse scaling. The Sega CD does have a faster CPU, but I think it's the scaling chip. Compare Jaguar XJ220 to Bloodshot or Road Rash (CD versions), which do not use the chip.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Since Road Rash has the same chuggy framerate as the Genesis games, I have always supposed that it was running off the Genesis CPU, not the Sub CPU, using the exact same engine as the Genesis games in typical EA form. Bloodshot on Genesis is also no different than the Sega CD game from what I can tell. The objects scale well in Jaguar XJ220, but they also chug characteristically of the 68000's abilities even at 12.5 Mhz. Compare XJ220 to something like BC Racers (flat floors plus scaling objects) and it is a huge difference.

    It could be that they used the Graphics CoProcessor, I just see more evidence against that idea, including the line scrolling floors and object size and framerate, than I see for.
    You're comparing different cases IMO.

    Road Rash on the Sega CD is running off the sub-CPU but when you have a shitty programmed game, like 95% of the games made by EA subcontracted companies, it doesn't benefit that much from the extra raw processing power. If you overclock the Genesis to 10Mhz Super Hang-On (Rev00 without framerate limitation) run fast as hell, much much faster... Any Road Rash games just run a bit better though...
    On the Sega CD Road Rash runs a bit better than any RR game on the Genesis, it's still not a good framerate but certainly better. No ASIC usage though and still a shitty software scaling engine.

    Bloodshot is running of the Genesis CPU in either version so no difference in terms of framerate. The thing is that the Genesis version seems unfinished with broken/buggy textures.

    About your Jaguar XJ220 vs BC Racers comparison: again, different pros and cons. BC Racers feels a lot slower most of the time, no surprise that it feels like having less slowdowns 'cause it is already slow dangit! It also has less cars than Jaguar XJ220 running against you, totally different AI and totally different track design system.

    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    And Bloodshot is different between the two versions, although the difference isn't great.
    Just a bug fix.
    All Domark games for the Sega CD are running off the Genesis CPU.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Looking at the video of XJ220 I just posted, I'm really not sure that the scaling objects would be possible at all without the Graphics CoProcessor. I'm pretty sure those trackside objects would have run head long into the VDP's sprites per scanline limit, or at least I assume that is why no Genesis games have that many joined objects even if they were animated scaling objects. XJ220 does chug in certain scenes though, just not all that often.

    I haven't seen any difference in the graphics quality between the MD/Genesis and Sega CD versions of Bloodshot. I also haven't played either version extensively and would probably look for a significantly improved engine like Battlecorp for the Sega CD version.
    I already covered it above.


    Just a tip about games running off the sub-CPU or not:
    - You can check it properly using a emulator with debug feature to "see" where the game is running. However, in 99.9% of the cases games that don't use the Sega CD soundchip are running completely on the Genesis CPU, examples: Flashback, Syndicate, Bloodshot...
    Examples of games running off the sub-CPU: Road Rash, Jaguar XJ220, F1 Beyond the Limit, Samurai Shodown, Heart of the Alien, Wing Commander, Final Fight CD... All games use the Sega CD soundchip, they can also use the Genesis soundchip for some instruments and sfx though.

    And for the ASIC usage, well, you just have to be careful while analyzing the graphics and how the game is running.

  7. #37
    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Road Rash Sega CD actually uses the Sega CD hardware? That seems unlikely, the game looks exactly the same as the Genesis games do, and has just as terrible a framerate as far as I can tell...

  8. #38
    Master of Shinobi Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Jaguar XJ220 was also an Amiga game, and the Amiga version has much worse scaling. The Sega CD does have a faster CPU, but I think it's the scaling chip. Compare Jaguar XJ220 to Bloodshot or Road Rash (CD versions), which do not use the chip.
    I have an old interview with CORE (I think in Mega Power or something) and in that Mark Avory confirmed he was using the scaling chip . I also think it was the 1st Mega CD game to continually using the Mega CD scaling chip through out the entire game, where as before the few Mega CD game that used the chip only used for the odd spot effect (like the map in Lunar)
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    Master of Shinobi bultje112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Dang Agostinho, those videos make Beyond the Limit look really freaking good. I'd love to know how to tune the cars so driving like that is more possible.
    just listen to what your crew advices you to pick. I can easily stay on track and do very well in this game and I don't tune around much. simply learn to play the game. it helps if you like and understand formula 1 though

  10. #40
    5200 controllers repaired Master of Shinobi tz101's Avatar
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    This thread and those video clips actually prompted me to pick this up recently. Haven't tried it out yet though.
    It is finished!

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    Master of Shinobi bultje112's Avatar
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    also I advice people to try grandprix mode and read all the info you can read about settings in that mode when you start it. this makes it it alot easier to tune your car and you are also adviced during races what settings to use.

  12. #42
    Master of Shinobi Zz Badnusty's Avatar
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    So did anyone who picked this up recently actually play it and enjoy it?

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    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    When this game out I rented it. Even back then I thought it had the worst framerate for any racing game ever. Which it does. Well, maybe Hard Drivin' on the Genesis is slower, but this game is super choppy and a pixely mess. I didn't care for t even when it was new and I was never impressed. It's got nothing on Batman Returns. The Japanese couldn't program on the Mega CD for shit. The westerners creamed their asses with superior skill.

  14. #44
    Hard Road! Raging in the Streets Barone's Avatar
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    The "world" and the AI is far more complex in F1 beyond The Limit.
    You can rotate 360 anywhere you want, in Batman Return you can't do that.

    Hard and Race Drivin' have worse framerates. As Stunt Race FX and Checkered Flag also have.

    But I agree about the "westerners". Core Design humiliated all Japanese developers IMO. Game Arts was probably the best Japanese company for the Mega CD.

  15. #45
    Jizzed in my pants... NOT Raging in the Streets M4R14NO94's Avatar
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    That's because everyone else back then was giving more of a shit about the fucking SNES. And the TG16/TGCD, but that was okay, because we got some sweet shooters out of them. On the SNES? RPGs. [/rant]

    Also, I've heard that F1 Circus CD (coincidentally also by a Japanese company) is even worse.
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