So, like, is Star Blade does use teh FMV for its polygons or not, yo?

[Chilly Willy]

It's possible that Star Blade only renders a few things, then "multiplies" it with the ASIC. Good example would be the asteroids. It might render two or three as "real" 3D and then use those as the source to quickly fill the screen with asteroids by scaling and rotating the few 3D rendered asteroids. The wireframe models are almost certainly rendered, not video. I really need to pick up this game... looks pretty cool!

[Barone]

Some big ships are not FMV, sheath, as in the PS1 version.
It's easy to see what is FMV or not if you run it on a emulator. Judging by an old video (I'm assuming low res) all will look the same.

[sheath]

Some big ships are not FMV, sheath, as in the PS1 version.
It's easy to see what is FMV or not if you run it on a emulator. Judging by an old video (I'm assuming low res) all will look the same.

Interesting. Do the capital ships have destructive spots in the Sega CD game? Either way, I find it impossible that Word RAM would be completely unused if the Sega CD was rendering that many polygons. Even Dragon's Layer uses it.

-edit-

They do, in fact right after the asteroid field almost all of the capital ships are destructable in part or in full. The plot thickens.



-edit-
It's even more interesting in comparison to the game in MAME. The 3DO ships have added "sheen" to them in the FMV segments, but MAME also isn't rendering everything correctly, especially the fire coming from the ships in the first segment.

Looking at that and then watching the Sega CD game, I'm noticing some significant changes in the geometry for the ships that just wouldn't make sense if they were just streaming the Arcade game in video. If some or all of those ships actually are rendered by the Sega CD it explains why the more dynamic smaller targets ended up as wireframes. Namco probably just didn't finish the game.

[Barone]

They do, in fact right after the asteroid field almost all of the capital ships are destructable in part or in full.

Sega CD has a bit more destructible parts than PS1, I'll post 2 short videos showing that.

But you're still missing the big picture, sheath. If you compare the asteroid field part in the 32-bit version and the Sega CD version it will be crystal clear that the background asteroids on the PS1/3DO are pre-rendered, they don't have any perspective error, they scale and rotate perfectly while the destructible ones aren't as detailed and you clearly see scaling and rotating anomalies. In the Sega CD version they all have rendering "errors", exactly like the wireframe-based ones. I'll show it in a few minutes.

It's even more interesting in comparison to the game in MAME. The 3DO ships have added "sheen" to them in the FMV segments, but MAME also isn't rendering everything correctly, especially the fire coming from the ships in the first segment.

Looking at that and then watching the Sega CD game, I'm noticing some significant changes in the geometry for the ships that just wouldn't make sense if they were just streaming the Arcade game in video. If some or all of those ships actually are rendered by the Sega CD it explains why the more dynamic smaller targets ended up as wireframes. Namco probably just didn't finish the game.

This is what I was saying all the time and nobody paid attention to it.

[sheath]

I'm looking forward to the videos, perhaps in its own topic over in the Sega CD section. I'll have to wait for my Sega CD StarBlade to come in before I can post anything, and these Youtube videos are typically fuzzy.

[M4R14NO94]

The Tekken 5 and Virtual Console versions do render the fire on the big ships.

[Barone]

I'm looking forward to the videos, perhaps in its own topic over in the Sega CD section. I'll have to wait for my Sega CD StarBlade to come in before I can post anything, and these Youtube videos are typically fuzzy.

Here is:

Starblade on the PS1. I used settings that would enhance the FMV problems and the differences between video and rendered 3D.
Pay attention to the asteroid field part, it's pathetically inconsistent with the background.
I played the "original" version (3DO and PS1 versions have the "textured" option, but it's more a change in the FMV than anything else.).
Please, watch in 720p before post anything.



The Sega CD version. No granulation artifacts like a FMV would have, no perfect/very smooth 3D scaling and rotation like a pre-rendered background would have.
Compare the asteroid filed part, it's pretty clear.
Using a video plug-in to enhance edges and artifacts.
Please, watch in 720p before post anything.



Here is the arcade version (the video is not mine but is also in HD).
The asteroid field part is at 2:00. Do I really need to say which console version looks closer to that?



And here is Silpheed using the same video plug-in... You can see the video granulation artifacts in the background but, please, pay attention to the ship that appears at 1:15. That's how pre-rendered stuff looks like and it's as smooth as the pre-rendered objects in the PS1 version of Starblade.
Please, watch in 720p before post anything.


IMO it's crystal clear that Sega CD's Starblade is NOT using FMV at all. What exactly it's doing is beyond me though...
I'll post the two short videos showing one of the examples where the Sega CD ship is destructible and the PS1's is not.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Couldn't you just examine the data on the disc and see if you find FMV data? If you find FMV data and possible have a means to play it that could but an end to this debate easily.

[Barone]

Couldn't you just examine the data on the disc and see if you find FMV data? If you find FMV data and possible have a means to play it that could but an end to this debate easily.

I had already done it.

Hi! How are you doing?

Thanks for your post. Is there a way to check if it's using FMV for the backgrounds or not? I'm pretty sure it isn't using but feels like people will never even accept the possibility without a proof.

Regards,
Agostinho

Look on the CD for cinepak files?

Sounds interesting...
I looked at the Loadstar files and it has some very big (~100MB) .dat files called level1, 2....
Silpheed had around 25 files without extension around 20MB each, probably the backgrounds...
Starblade has more than 250 .dat files with only one being 11MB and the rest around 1MB or 500KB.
AH3 Thunderstrike has some .SEQ files around 1 or 2MB, probably the little FMV before the missions and dozens of small .dat files like Starblade.

That means something?

Or you could have just watched the videos first, Trekkies.

[Joe Redifer]

agosotinabrs, I did not look at all your pictures as I have no clue what they mean nor do I really care. It's all gibberish to me.

Anyway I took this shit out of the Game Sack thread because it was really starting to bog it down and make it far less appealing. So now this thread exists.

[Barone]

Thanks for mocking my real name for nothing.

It's always easier to force "100% facts" based on assumptions than try to understand what is going on. Especially easier when you are the administrator.
I understand you, Joe.

[sheath]

Well, obvious smiting aside, I think this has opened up enough questions that it is worth analyzing more. Why would the Sega CD be capable of artifact free and sharper FMV backgrounds than the 3DO or PS1? Why do the ship models look different in the Sega CD version, or do they look different? How can the Sega CD version allow for entire chunks of background elements to be destroyed at the player's leisure, do the 3DO and PS1 version use fully rendered ships for these and not others?

Most interesting to me, does the Sega CD Work RAM show data of any sort in Gens Kmod or GS while working with polygons or blitter objects? Can anybody answer these questions outside of the development houses that actually made the games?

[Joe Redifer]

Dude I can't even remember your name. To me it looks like a random jumble of letters. Honestly, what do you expect? If it's your name at least put a space in there somewhere.

Especially easier when you are the administrator.

I'm not sure what this even means. You mean since I am an admin (not really, it just says that) I should care to examine your screen shots which I do not understand nor have a desire to understand such graphical gibberish?

I understand you, Joe.

Of course you do. I make myself very clear.

[Chilly Willy]

Why would the Sega CD be capable of artifact free and sharper FMV backgrounds than the 3DO or PS1?

It wouldn't... which is exactly his point. If SCD Star Blade used FMV, you WOULD SEE lots of artifacts and loss of detail since the SCD isn't capable of really good FMV. He pointed out the Silpheed shows artifacts on the background, and we know Silpheed uses FMV. That Star Blade doesn't show these same artifacts is a point in favor of rendered scenes instead of FMV.

[Barone]

Dude I can't even remember your name. To me it looks like a random jumble of letters. Honestly, what do you expect? If it's your name at least put a space in there somewhere.
I'm not sure what this even means. You mean since I am an admin (not really, it just says that) I should care to examine your screen shots which I do not understand nor have a desire to understand such graphical gibberish?
Of course you do. I make myself very clear.

It's OK, Joe, I think that we don't need to fight due to this "to be FMV or not to be" thing.
And, no, I don't think that you have to examine everything... It's just there for whoever may be interested.

I'm sorry for the mess, was not my intention to bog your thread down... After all, you know how much I enjoy your show.

Well, obvious smiting aside, I think this has opened up enough questions that it is worth analyzing more. Why would the Sega CD be capable of artifact free and sharper FMV backgrounds than the 3DO or PS1? Why do the ship models look different in the Sega CD version, or do they look different? How can the Sega CD version allow for entire chunks of background elements to be destroyed at the player's leisure, do the 3DO and PS1 version use fully rendered ships for these and not others?

Most interesting to me, does the Sega CD Work RAM show data of any sort in Gens Kmod or GS while working with polygons or blitter objects? Can anybody answer these questions outside of the development houses that actually made the games?

It wouldn't... which is exactly his point. If SCD Star Blade used FMV, you WOULD SEE lots of artifacts and loss of detail since the SCD isn't capable of really good FMV. He pointed out the Silpheed shows artifacts on the background, and we know Silpheed uses FMV. That Star Blade doesn't show these same artifacts is a point in favor of rendered scenes instead of FMV.

This.

What bugs me is how cheap Namco went in the 3DO version (the PS1's is just a port of it made by another company AFAIK)... Judging by Super Wing Commander, they could have done much better than just use a cheap FMV background and render some of the objects in a way that it doesn't even seem connected to the game is some parts... Well, not so cheap as the Star Wars game by Lucas Arts though (talk about an ugly FMV)...