Any other Master System fans?

[sheath]

This seems like a good point to remind everybody that Nintendo lost a Federal suit for price fixing the NES through 1989. I believe the numbers presented claimed that the NES cost $10 to manufacture and was still selling for $100. That combined with the fact(?) that the Famicom launched with the SG1000, and first year NES games showed about the same quality, ought to put this conversation to bed.

The Master System, much like the Genesis, rarely depended on unique home versions of Arcade titles. Cases like Quartet (SMS) and E-Swat and Shadow Dancer (GEN) were the exception, not the rule. Even Altered Beast and Golden Axe on the Master System strive and achieve more Arcade accuracy than contemporary NES adaptations.

The NES needed unique home offerings for the entire 8-bit era in the West due to severe hardware inferiority. Fortunately for NES fans, the unique NES games are good or even great, but they are not the same game that Arcade players would look for.

Except for the lousy collision detection. For me the only port worth playing is the NES version despite the lack of a two-player mode since you can actually, y'know, hit things.

Collision detection is fine in Master System Double Dragon. Why does this term pop up so often for games when it has no clear definition? The Master System game punishes the player for standing toe to toe and using long range attacks (without weapons), and rewards the player for close-in fighting with the very powerful elbow, back kick and jump back kick. I haven't had a problem hitting opponents in Double Dragon for the Master System, so I'm not sure what the collision detection problem is.

[A Black Falcon]

Double Dragon on SMS also has FM support.

PS: You guys forget that the SMS got a lot of nice Sega games, while the NES only got a few arcade ports of varying quality by Sunsoft and Tengen.

Uh... no, there are plenty of arcade ports on the NES not by Sunsoft or Tengen... what about Konami, for instance? TMNT II: The Arcade Game, Gradius, Life Force... those are arcade ports. Well, Life Force is a modified port (different powerup system), and TMNT II has an added level or two, but they are ports. And then there are early '80s arcade game ports, like some I mentioned before like Bump n Jump, Millipede, Burgertime, Dig Dug II, Dig Dug (Japan only), etc etc , as well as a bunch more from Tengen and Sunsoft. SNK too -- don't forget Athena, the three Ikari Warriors games, P.O.W., and Guerilla War are arcade ports. The NES has Smash TV too, and Image Fight, and Tiger-Heli, and so so much more (I didn't list the three DK games and Mario Bros. again yet), Renegade, Rush'n Attack, BreakThru, Arkanoid, Seicross, City Connection, I could go on and on, there are lots more. I'm not going to try to find every single one at the moment, that's just some of them. And I didn't even list anything from Tengen or Sunsoft.

Seriously, the NES has a massive arcade port library. Yes, some are modified, certainly. Some look as good as the arcade versions (any of the early '80s ones), some look similar (mid '80s ones), and some look worse or are significantly different games (early '90s ones), but while I wouldn't count that last group as ports (Contra, Strider, Might Final Fight, etc. are clearly different games. So are the NES Double Dragon games, I think... those are more original titles than they are ports, unlike the SMS version, so I don't think they should be directly compared.), the rest are, and many are good on the NES.

Of course, the SMS too has a lot of arcade ports, mostly of Sega games, but claiming that somehow the NES doesn't is completely bizarre and couldn't be farther from the truth.

The original statement was that SMS had an "edge" in arcade ports. One could argue that a greater focus on more current (at the time) games, with fewer ports of much older games, constitutes an edge.

The NES does have ports of important newer arcade games like Gradius, TMNT II: The Arcade Game, and such, though... and it even has versions of some early SMS titles like Fantasy Zone, After Burner, Shinobi, Alien Syndrome, and the like. Alien Syndrome's better on the NES, though Shinobi isn't.

The Atari 8-bit version of Donkey Kong was better IMO. Most of those, I just don't care much about. Ms. Pac-Man, in particular, I love the game, but I've never been satisfied with the home ports, because I'm used to the "fast" arcade version and they never include that option. I do quite like the Genesis Ms. Pac-Man, but that's not really a port, more of a remix.

The A8 version may have had all four stages, but visually, the NES version was the first version with nearly arcade-perfect graphics. It also has things that most prior ports hadn't, gameplay-wise, like the springs in the spring factory stage (that stage is pretty lame without them!). It was kind of unfortunate that they didn't put the missing stage back into DK in the DK Classics collection cart for instance, though, but oh well.

And of course, DK Jr. is a pretty much perfect arcade port, and does have all four stages. I like Jr. better than the first game too, myself...

I don't think I'd go that far. There are still quite a few quite a few games I like for NES, SMS, C64, and other systems. I'd say I don't like 8-bit games in general as much, compared to 16-bit and later generations, but I'm not wholly dismissive. You could say I have a higher standard, or a lower tolerance for certain types of flaws/practices that were common to the era.

I don't really know what you mean about the collision detection in NES games, though...

Donkey Kong on NES is not a particularly good port, it has an entire stage missing, and there were only four stages to begin with

The Amstrad version is simply much better, and the C64, and Atari A8 versions, whilst graphically inferior at least have the whole game so I would seriosuly consider putting them higher too.

As I said above, the NES version is a very good port apart from the missing stage.

Again, I'm not the expert around here where it comes to tech, but to be fair I believe the Vectrex should probably be better for what it was designed for than NES (Vector 3D graphics), I remember reading something about the port of Elite to NES, where the developer said it was an absolute nightmare getting vector 3D to work well on NES, because it wasn't really designed for it (though that port still turned out very well to be honest)

The Vectrex is impressive hardware, yeah. Maybe more so than the other systems of 1982. But it was B&W...

There are also some tradeoffs with the Atari 5200, but that hardware is weird, and rarely sees its full potential, most games on it look like ass but every now and then you get something impressive. 5200 has a much bigger Master colour pallette than both NES, and Master System, but its on-screen limitation is really crappy without tricks, with tricks I think it could probably out-do the NES in straight on-screen colour counts though, but only if the graphics style of the game fitted the tricks, there was a very talented developer, and they spent a lot of time optimising everything. Outside of that though the native resolution, and sprites on 5200 are quite crappy in comparison to NES, I believe the soundchip holds up respectably though (unlike the 7800 soundchip, funnily enough).

Yeah, 5200 games do often seem to use very limited numbers of colors on screen. Atari improved on color variety in the 7800 for sure, at least.

Colecovision also has a tradeoff or two, but not so-as anyone would notice. I believe Colecovision lets you put 15 colours in every 8x8 pixel square of the background, whilst NES limits you to 4 colours per 16x16 square, and 1 of them has to be shared across the whole background. However the Colecovision has other limitations on where you can place the colour (only two per line of the 8x8 section), the master pallette is too small, and the sprites are crappy where it comes to colour, so it doesn't really show up as any real advantage.

Yeah, Colecovision does have some pretty colorful sprites, but too few colors to choose from...

In regards to the whole generation stuff, as I've mentioned before I think Colecovision/SG-1000, 5200, and maybe Vextrex should actually have their own generation.

Why should the SG-1000 and NES be considered in different generations when they released in the same country on the same day?

I mean, aren't those other systems more like other early in their generation, not as powerful systems like the TG16, 3DO, Jaguar, or Dreamcast, than really systems that should be put in a separate generation? Homebrew has shown that it is possible to pull off scrolling on the Colecovision, for example... the systems all just died before people saw if they could push them in directions past 2nd gen style games. Most earlier TG16 games are quite NES-ish too, in gameplay...

You're still missing the point, that the SMS still has better faithful+ arcade ports despite what the NES has. The SMS also has ports of early arcade games, but because the bar was higher and those types of games looked like the SG-1000, SMS ports usually have aesthetic upgrades, even when the gameplay is faithful.

You mentioned how several NES ports of games which appeared on the previous generation "just blow away all prior ports". But the SMS ports of those games, as well as pretty much any other NES attempt at a faithful arcade port, are blown away by SMS versions.

Most of the arcade games that got NES releases weren't also ON the SMS. How many exceptions were there? Rampage, Bubble Bobble, much else?

I prefer many myself. But the point is that the SMS has better arcade ports overall. As well as plenty of "same name but different" ones.

It has good home ports of Sega games, but very few from anyone else.

[TheSonicRetard]

Uh... no, there are plenty of arcade ports on the NES not by Sunsoft or Tengen... what about Konami, for instance? TMNT II: The Arcade Game, Gradius, Life Force... those are arcade ports. Well, Life Force is a modified port (different powerup system), and TMNT II has an added level or two, but they are ports. And then there are early '80s arcade game ports, like some I mentioned before like Bump n Jump, Millipede, Burgertime, Dig Dug II, Dig Dug (Japan only), etc etc , as well as a bunch more from Tengen and Sunsoft. SNK too -- don't forget Athena, the three Ikari Warriors games, P.O.W., and Guerilla War are arcade ports. The NES has Smash TV too, and Image Fight, and Tiger-Heli, and so so much more (I didn't list the three DK games and Mario Bros. again yet), Renegade, Rush'n Attack, BreakThru, Arkanoid, Seicross, City Connection, I could go on and on, there are lots more. I'm not going to try to find every single one at the moment, that's just some of them. And I didn't even list anything from Tengen or Sunsoft.

...he said that the NES only got Sunsoft or Tengen ports of SEGA arcade games.

Although that's not technically true. Asmik handled altered beast.

Alien Syndrome's better on the NES, though Shinobi isn't.

Alien Syndrome is more faithful to the arcade game, because the SMS version is a completely different game that is technically a sequel to the original. But the NES version is not a superior game.

Most of the arcade games that got NES releases weren't also ON the SMS. How many exceptions were there? Rampage, Bubble Bobble, much else?

When you make comments like this one, or the way you haven't played Wonderboy III, I seriously question just how familiar with the SMS you are. There are numerous games on both the SMS and NES.

Lessie...

Double Dragon
Rampage
Rastan
Guantlet
Klax
Wonderboy/Adventure Island
Wonderboy in Monster Land/Saiyūki World
Kung Fu
Shinobi
Space Harrier
Fantasy Zone
Altered Beast
Alien Syndrome
Afterburner
Ms. Pac-man
Pac Mania
Paper boy
Bubble Bobble
Rainbow Islands
Strider
Battletoads
Chase HQ
Choplifter
Cloud Master
Marble Madness
New Zealand Story
Rampart
Renegade
Rygar
Smash TV
Operation Wolf

that's ignoring games for both systems which WEREN'T arcade ports, too (and games that are the opposite - SMS games ported to the arcade and NES, like Fantasy Zone 2). It also doesn't count games which are, for the most part, clones of each other, like Outrun/Rad Racer, or Ikari Warriors/Rambo.

[Thenewguy]

I would argue that the SMS port of Double Dragon is no more faithful than the NES port, half the important gameplay elements are absent from the SMS game, I mean yeah, great it has 2 player co-op, but where the heck did the gameplay go?!

NES port adds a bunch of new elements, and changes, but the foundation of the original game is still there.

I find the way Double Dragon gets brought up to be very weird, its one of the most commonly brought up games as superior on SMS, but as far as I'm concerned is one of the only times when the SMS version is actually worse. Why not bring up Bubble Bobble, or Wonder Boy/Adventure Island?, Gauntlet? Paperboy? Operation Wolf? Pac-Mania?

[A Black Falcon]

...he said that the NES only got Sunsoft or Tengen ports of SEGA arcade games.

Although that's not technically true. Asmik handled altered beast.

That list was for all of the comments about the NES's supposedly not so great arcade library, not just that one... but was that what he meant? I couldn't tell.

Alien Syndrome is more faithful to the arcade game, because the SMS version is a completely different game that is technically a sequel to the original. But the NES version is not a superior game.

Why not? The SMS game has better graphics, sure, but the NES's two player simultaneous mode is pretty nice...

You're right that the two have completely different level designs, though.

When you make comments like this one, or the way you haven't played Wonderboy III, I seriously question just how familiar with the SMS you are. There are numerous games on both the SMS and NES.

I'm more familiar with US-released SMS games than the Europe-only ones, apart from those also on the GG.

I would argue that the SMS port of Double Dragon is no more faithful than the NES port, half the important gameplay elements are absent from the SMS game, I mean yeah, great it has 2 player co-op, but where the heck did the gameplay go?!

NES port adds a bunch of new elements, and changes, but the foundation of the original game is still there.

I found the SMS version of Double Dragon okay, but that game's just so primitive compared to later, better beat 'em ups... it's not nearly as good now as it was at the time.

I find the way Double Dragon gets brought up to be very weird, its one of the most commonly brought up games as superior on SMS, but as far as I'm concerned is one of the only times when the SMS version is actually worse. Why not bring up Bubble Bobble, or Wonder Boy/Adventure Island?, Gauntlet? Paperboy? Operation Wolf? Pac-Mania?

That's easy. Bubble Bobble, Gauntlet, Operation Wolf, and Pac-Mania were all only released in Europe. Wonder Boy, Double Dragon, and Paperboy are the only ones on that list actually released in the US. And of those three, Double Dragon was by far the most popular and successful, on SMS at least; it's a reasonably common SMS game, as far as SMS games go in the US. I've seen several copies myself. Haven't seen any of Wonder Boy. It is kind of odd really, given that Wonder Boy was really popular on the NES as Adventure Island, that the better SMS version wouldn't get much attention, but it doesn't seem to have.

[A Black Falcon]

Lessie...

Quotes removed for added comments.

Double Dragon - I have this... it's an arcade port, but not also on the NES given how as I said above the NES version's quite different.
Rampage - I have this one too. Good version, sure.
Rastan - This one did get a US release, and isn't on the NES, either. Very good game! I do have it.
Guantlet - Europe only on SMS
Klax - Europe only on SMS
Wonderboy/Adventure Island - Sega published these and owns the character rights, so even though they're multiplatform they're also sort of Sega's... I'm not sure if they should count (as third party games) or not.
Wonderboy in Monster Land/Saiyūki World - Same as previous, except this one is Europe only on the SMS.
Kung Fu - What's the SMS version of this called?
Shinobi
Space Harrier - I knew about these Sega games, but wasn't counting them. Of course Sega was going to port its own popular arcade games.
Fantasy Zone
Altered Beast
Alien Syndrome - Games are entirely different of course on each platform.
Afterburner
Ms. Pac-man - Europe only on SMS
Pac Mania - Europe only on SMS.
Paper boy - This was released in the US, yeah.
Bubble Bobble - Europe only on SMS
Rainbow Islands - Europe only on SMS
Strider - Not also on the NES of course, that game's entirely different. Also, a pretty serious downgrade from the other versions... it did get a US release, though. Huh.
Battletoads - Um, the only SMS Battletoads game was Battletoads in Battlemaniacs, a mediocre, unfinished downport of the SNES game... and the arcade game never got a home port. So why is this on this list?
Chase HQ - Europe only on SMS
Choplifter - This is not a port, but an original (and great) title. Worldwide release.
Cloud Master - I'd forgotten that this wasn't a port of a Sega game... but yeah, I guess it is a port of a Taito title (and did get a US release of course). It's one I'd like to get for sure.
Marble Madness - Europe only on SMS
New Zealand Story - Europe only on SMS. I have this for the NES, it's a good game.
Rampart - Europe only on SMS
Renegade - Europe only on SMS
Rygar - this was not on the NES, the NES version's an entirely different game (not an arcade port). Also Japan only.
Smash TV - Europe only on SMS
Operation Wolf - Europe only on SMS

that's ignoring games for both systems which WEREN'T arcade ports, too (and games that are the opposite - SMS games ported to the arcade and NES, like Fantasy Zone 2). It also doesn't count games which are, for the most part, clones of each other, like Outrun/Rad Racer, or Ikari Warriors/Rambo.

Those probably shouldn't count, yeah.

It is interesting to see that the SMS did have more arcade ports than I'd realized, though. Most released quite a while after the NES versions -- most of those Europe-only ones released between 1991 and 1993 -- but still, while the NES of course has far, far more of them, the SMS does have some ports of non-Sega arcade games.

[TheSonicRetard]

Choplifter IS an arcade port. The original was released for the Apple IIe and is quite different (and most computer versions of the game are based on this version). Sega then obtained the rights and created an arcade version of the game:



Sega and Boarderbund then ported the Arcade game to the SMS (sega) and NES (borderbund). they are obviously based off the arcade game and not the Apple IIe version:

Apple IIe:



Atari 8-bit


C64:


Arcade:


SMS:


NES:

[Thenewguy]

Of course, the SMS too has a lot of arcade ports, mostly of Sega games, but claiming that somehow the NES doesn't is completely bizarre and couldn't be farther from the truth.

My money would be on the NES here, but to be honest the more I think about it the more I think the SMS shouldn't be written off too fast.

Sega themselves do add up to a lot on their own for one thing, as Sega were one of the top arcade producers in the world, and also one of the most prolific, but this certainly isn't just a case Of Sega vs everyone else.

Taito supported the SMS pretty well, and most of their SMS versions were better than the NES versions, US Gold also did a good job of porting over Atari arcade games, so in those two areas SMS may well have the better versions in regards to Taito and Atari. On top of that Sega were already in the habit of porting over other companies arcade games themselves, and as usual they did a consistently good job of it (Capcom were pretty well represented, with Mercs, Ghouls N Ghosts, Forgotten Worlds, and Sega also ported over games from Irem, such as R-Type, and Vigilante, and Tecmo, such as Rygar, and Solomons Key)

The A8 version may have had all four stages, but visually, the NES version was the first version with nearly arcade-perfect graphics.

As far as I'm concerned, if 25% of the game is missing then not only is it not a great port, its actually an awful port

Yeah, 5200 games do often seem to use very limited numbers of colors on screen. Atari improved on color variety in the 7800 for sure, at least.

Only when the hardware is not being maxed out, when it is being maxed out it may be able to have better colour than NES.

Why should the SG-1000 and NES be considered in different generations when they released in the same country on the same day?

There's a lot more to it than that though, each region had different expectations back in the day, and were at different stages.

The SG-1000 may have been released on the same day as the NES, but the SG-1000 is a rebranded Colecovision, which came out in the US in 1982, they're the exact same thing. At the time Japan was waay behind the US where it came to home consoles, they were playing Pong machines whilst 2600 were popular, Sega decided the market was ripe for bringing out their version of the Colecovision, but unfortunately for them Nintendo had already decided to put their business on the line and invest a load of money into designing their own console, when the NES came out in Japan the Japanese essentially leap frogged from Pong machines to NES, and because of Nintendo huge gambit, they ended up with a console which was state-of-the-art for 1983 (for its price).

I mean, aren't those other systems more like other early in their generation, not as powerful systems like the TG16, 3DO, Jaguar, or Dreamcast, than really systems that should be put in a separate generation?

Well, the way I see it, had the crash not happened, the Colecovision, and 5200 would've taken over the market in the US (Colecovision was growing at a really fast rate just before the crash), they would've spent their lives during what ended up being the crash years, and following the natural console cycle would've needed to have been replaced ~1986 with new consoles (could've easily been SMS or something similar).

[Black_Tiger]

It has good home ports of Sega games, but very few from anyone else.

I'm not sure if you're once again narrowing down your comments to America being the centre of the universe or not, but the SMS has ports of many non-Sega games. Sega might have done many of those ports, but that's something else.

Games like:

Vigilante
Time Soldiers
Chase HQ
T2 Arcade
Space Invaders
Smash TV
Super Off Road
Street Fighter II
S.C.I.
Solomon's Key
Sagaia
Rygar
R-Type
Renegade
Rastan
Rampage
Rainbow Islands
Pit Fighter
Pacmania
Operation Wolf
New Zealand Story
Ms Pac Man
Mortal Kombat
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat 3
Mercs
Marble Madness
Klax
Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Gauntlet
Forgotten Worlds
Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine
Double Dragon
Dead Angle
Bubble Bobble
Centipede
Breakout
Missile Command

[A Black Falcon]

Choplifter IS an arcade port. The original was released for the Apple IIe and is quite different (and most computer versions of the game are based on this version). Sega then obtained the rights and created an arcade version of the game:



Sega and Boarderbund then ported the Arcade game to the SMS (sega) and NES (borderbund). they are obviously based off the arcade game and not the Apple IIe version:

Apple IIe:



Atari 8-bit


C64:


Arcade:


SMS:


NES:

You are right that the SMS Choplifter is a port of Sega's arcade game, yeah. I knew that, but somehow was thinking it was different... oh well.

But beyond that... wait, the NES version of Choplifter is actually based on the Sega version? That's pretty surprising... Choplifter was on other systems too, like the Atari 5200 and 7800, and those are based on the original Broderbund version, not the Sega remake. It's easy enough to tell the difference -- the original Apple II version and its ports have only one level, so after you beat the desert stage, the game ends. The Sega version has four levels, I believe, each with a different theme.

... Looking up a video of the NES version, it actually has a second stage that is the same as the SMS level two, on the ocean... huh. So it is a port of the Sega arcade game. Odd, I wonder how that happened, Sega isn't mentioned... Oh, it's not from Broderbund -- the NES version (only released in Japan) was published by Jaleco. Broderbund is mentioned in all of the versions, including the Sega arcade game, because they owned the rights to the name.

[NeoZeedeater]

And of course, DK Jr. is a pretty much perfect arcade port, and does have all four stages. I like Jr. better than the first game too, myself...

It's not that close to being a perfect arcade port. The arcade game's certainly nicer looking in colour and detail but the controls were reworked (for the better) on NES. I prefer the NES version because of the responsiveness but I can see how some would like the less forgiving arcade original.

I find the way Double Dragon gets brought up to be very weird, its one of the most commonly brought up games as superior on SMS, but as far as I'm concerned is one of the only times when the SMS version is actually worse. Why not bring up Bubble Bobble, or Wonder Boy/Adventure Island?, Gauntlet? Paperboy? Operation Wolf? Pac-Mania?

Agreed.

I want to stab whoever decided SMS Bubble Bobble wasn't getting released in NA (maybe Taito feared pissing off Nintendo too much at the time?). I was happy with the C64 and NES ports but that's because I didn't know about the SMS version. The SMS port was not only much closer in feel to the arcade game but actually surpassed the arcade game in content. It's one of gaming's most overlooked versions of a popular classic.

But yeah, the SMS often had the best home versions of multi-format games.

[j_factor]

Europe only on SMS

Unlike the NES, and pretty much every other console, on SMS North America and Europe are the same region. These games were often sold in North America anyway -- unofficially, but they were available, and not always advertised as imports. My dad bought Ultima IV locally, for example. To this day I see European SMS games in the wild all the time, sometimes even European copies of games that had US releases. Most people are probably none the wiser unless they're checking barcodes.

[A Black Falcon]

Unlike the NES, and pretty much every other console, on SMS North America and Europe are the same region. These games were often sold in North America anyway -- unofficially, but they were available, and not always advertised as imports. My dad bought Ultima IV locally, for example. To this day I see European SMS games in the wild all the time, sometimes even European copies of games that had US releases. Most people are probably none the wiser unless they're checking barcodes.

I've heard an excuse like that one before, for the NGPC -- those Europe-only games aren't really Europe-only, you see, because some web stores sold them!

No, in both cases, the answer is simple and the same. Yes, they are different regions, and no, European releases certainly do not count as American ones. Just because some people are importing the game, or because some store (via a magazine ore website) will sell you an import, CERTAINLY does not mean that the game was actually released in that region. The two things are entirely different. In both cases it's easy enough to see the difference between releases, of course. Only US NGPC games have ESRB ratings, and only EU SMS games have five languages on the back of the box.

On that note, I do have one European SMS game, Double Dragon as it happens, and yeah, it works fine on my US SMS. However, if there are any SMS games that were designed for PAL only, then there would be games that only work in Europe. I'd think there'd be something, presumably from European third parties (because Sega's own stuff wasn't). They aren't the same exact region, the carts are just inter-compatible.

It's not that close to being a perfect arcade port. The arcade game's certainly nicer looking in colour and detail but the controls were reworked (for the better) on NES. I prefer the NES version because of the responsiveness but I can see how some would like the less forgiving arcade original.

Well of course they can't be perfect arcade ports... don't DK and I think DK Jr. use vertical monitors in the arcades? They're as good as you could have gotten though, visually and gameplay-wise.

Agreed.

I want to stab whoever decided SMS Bubble Bobble wasn't getting released in NA (maybe Taito feared pissing off Nintendo too much at the time?). I was happy with the C64 and NES ports but that's because I didn't know about the SMS version. The SMS port was not only much closer in feel to the arcade game but actually surpassed the arcade game in content. It's one of gaming's most overlooked versions of a popular classic.

But yeah, the SMS often had the best home versions of multi-format games.

Bubble Bobble was released in Japan in '88 on SMS, wasn't it... so yeah, must have been something about because Taito released it on the NES here. Some other Taito games were released on SMS here though, like Rastan, but I don't know about any that'd been released on NES...

I'm not sure if you're once again narrowing down your comments to America being the centre of the universe or not, but the SMS has ports of many non-Sega games. Sega might have done many of those ports, but that's something else.

I do think that a port released in a single region, years after the original version and the first (NES) port, is a bit less important than it otherwise would be, yes. And a lot of those SMS arcade ports that were in that first list were exactly that, late, single-region ports of arcade games. Of course for SMS owners who want those games it's great that they made the ports, but it's not quite as relevant as an earlier or more widely available version would be.

I mean, seriously, maybe it's a better port, but is the SMS version of, say, Renegade really that important when it released a full five years after the NES version (1988 to 1993)?

Games like:

Vigilante
Time Soldiers
Chase HQ
T2 Arcade
Space Invaders
Smash TV
Super Off Road
Street Fighter II
S.C.I.
Solomon's Key
Sagaia
Rygar
R-Type
Renegade
Rastan
Rampage
Rainbow Islands
Pit Fighter
Pacmania
Operation Wolf
New Zealand Story
Ms Pac Man
Mortal Kombat
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat 3
Mercs
Marble Madness
Klax
Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Gauntlet
Forgotten Worlds
Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine
Double Dragon
Dead Angle
Bubble Bobble
Centipede
Breakout
Missile Command

Many of these I addressed in that last list, but as for the rest... well, almost all are Europe-only on the SMS of course, but even beyond that, for some of the newer ones, ports of '90s games like the MK games, for instance, those are SMS/Game Gear multiplatform titles... and the 8-bit ports of the MK games were pretty bad. GB, GG, SMS, none are worth even considering. They should go in the same category as Golden Axe, Altered Beast, and other such "why, exactly, did they downport this?" titles. I imagine it's because porting GG games to the SMS was really cheap and they thought they could sell a few extra copies in Europe and Brazil that way, but still... yeah, those are not worth playing.

Oh, and SMS Solomon's Key was Japan-only, apparently... that'd be difficult to play on any Western system.

But sure, some of those are good ports worth having, like Rastan certainly is, or worth having if you don't have the system with the better version of the game, such as R-Type (I have the TG16 version... very little reason to consider the SMS version compared to that! But for an 8-bit version it's good. Better than the GB version, certainly -- the game has 9 levels on SMS, but only 6 on GB...).

[Black_Tiger]

Who cares if a game might have been released in Europe, but not North America?

Many of those games being ruled out as European-only likely were officially released in North America. Just because you didn't see something, that isn't a definite measure of an entire continent.

Ultima IV is one so-called Europe-only game that Sears sold in Canada that I personally saw. I've heard of other SMS called labeled European-only in the past which I also came across in Canada.

Oh, and SMS Solomon's Key was Japan-only, apparently... that'd be difficult to play on any Western system.

You're posting in a forum where people put freaking FM chips into Western SMS consoles, consolize Game Gears, play imports off of flash carts... on a site that reviews import devices.

Even if playing imports wasn't so common, that doesn't change the actual library that exists. Why stretch so desperately to disqualify SMS games at all?

If you're disqualifying games, why not say that any NES games which used any kind of extra hardware (mappers, etc) don't count as real games?

[A Black Falcon]

Who cares if a game might have been released in Europe, but not North America?

Many of those games being ruled out as European-only likely were officially released in North America. Just because you didn't see something, that isn't a definite measure of an entire continent.

Certainly not, given that the majority of Europe-only SMS games released after mid 1991, and there were definitely not any more US-released SMS games after Sonic in mid '91.

Ultima IV is one so-called Europe-only game that Sears sold in Canada that I personally saw. I've heard of other SMS called labeled European-only in the past which I also came across in Canada.

As I said, so some stores imported copies or something. So? It's still Europe-only. The same applies for, say, Shenmue 2 for the Dreamcast. Just because EB sold European versions in the game (along with the disc you'd need to play imports) in US stores doesn't mean the game had a North American release! The two things are quite different.

You're posting in a forum where people put freaking FM chips into Western SMS consoles, consolize Game Gears, play imports off of flash carts... on a site that reviews import devices.

Well obviously if you have a flashcart that's something different entirely, but I was talking about official carts of course.

Even if playing imports wasn't so common, that doesn't change the actual library that exists. Why stretch so desperately to disqualify SMS games at all?

It's not stretching desperately, not at all.

I mean, do that many people care about late, US-only 8-bit arcade ports like, say, the 1993 NES version of Ms. Pac-Man, for example? I doubt it.

If you're disqualifying games, why not say that any NES games which used any kind of extra hardware (mappers, etc) don't count as real games?

What does what mappers are inside the cart have to do with things like release dates or regions the game was released in? Not much, I think.