Any other Master System fans?

[Kamahl]

Haha yep, the Atari ST is a real piece of shit.

Yey.

As for the SMS, I like it, i'm not gonna buy into 'the graphics are better', but the library of great games is less obvious and requires more digging than the NES, but it has some real winners if you find them.

True, it may not have as much quantity, but it's greats sure do compete in quality with the NES.
If it had a large global palette like the GG, the difference in quality of the graphics would be much more obvious. If the NES didn't use so many add-on chips the difference would also be more obvious.

[Gogogadget]

Imo, the graphics are better on the SMS, but talking about graphics when comparing consoles released in 1984 and 1986 it's a total moot point, gameplay is far more important.

[Black_Tiger]

I'm really surprised by the hate the SMS is getting in this thread, even from what sounds like ignorant and biased perspectives. I'm used to it being dismissed without any effort. Either way, it just reinforces its "underrated status".

[Christuserloeser]

Well, the Master System is the closest thing to the Mega Drive there is. I really love the post mortem games Sega of Japan produced for the European (and South American) market - and the Game Gear. Sonic, Asterix, Shinobi World, Land of Illusion - those are among the finest 8-bit games ever made.

And there are some real gems from the earlier days when they still released SMS games in Japan and the US as well. Alex Kidd, Fantasy Zone II, Dragon's Trap, Phantasy Star... - those were just epic. Still are, I think.

The FM chip is awesome too. Really helps when you're getting tired of the regular PSG music.

[goldenband]

After playing SMS off and on in emulation for a couple years, I bought a CIB console a couple years ago for a great price. I've enjoyed it enough to buy the 3D glasses and even the FM board (though I haven't installed it yet). It's got its own distinctive flavor, does what it does well, and can clearly do certain things that the NES can't.

Having said that, I think many of its games are undermined by poor presentation. A high color count doesn't really matter if the art direction and design sensibility look amateurish, and innovative ideas don't go far if the game's play control feels sloppy and subpar. I can't think of any contemporaneous first-party games from Nintendo that look as shoddy as E-SWAT, for example. In general I find that SMS games often (not always) lack the extra polish that makes the best NES games feel so immersive -- they're on a par with Legend of Kage, so to speak, and not Contra.

I also think that the sound hardware is a much bigger liability than people recognize, at least for those of us who care about game music. I know I've said this before, but the SMS sound hardware is roughly comparable to the ColecoVision, and basically inferior to the Intellivision -- a console that's nearly a decade older. That's inexcusable, and absolutely audible -- for me, the lack of bass is a major problem, as is the lack of timbral variety. And the FM module is mostly irrelevant since (a) it wasn't available outside Japan, and (b) if you're going to bring that in to the discussion, then Castlevania III (J), Lagrange Point, and the Famicom Disk System's extra channels should come in too.

(EDIT: I thought of something else as well. I don't actually mind the SMS controllers, but two buttons simply wasn't enough, and a pause button located on the console doesn't really cut it. I won't count the ease with which one can hit the reset button instead since I assume one gets used to it over time, and when you compare that issue to NES blinking lockout woes...)

Anyway, I intend to keep playing my SMS, and look forward to working my way through more of the console's library. And my Game Gear, too. In a way, the handheld seems like the apotheosis of the SMS hardware, since its limitations become somewhat irrelevant and its strengths are perfectly suited for the format.

[StarMist]

Total library, as in 1985-1994, the NES wins because of its later years yes. When the two systems were actually competing in the same market though, it is far from clear which is the winner.

The same thing can be said for the Mega Drive, the 32X, the Saturn, and the DC, but Sega systems do not get a free pass just cz Sega always killed them off early. The Saturn does not get the DreamCast library added to its side when pitted against the Playstation, the SMS does not get the Genesis added to its side when pitted against the NES. And apart from Phantasy Star II the `89-`90 Genesis vs NES libraries are lopsided in Nintendo's favour. Plus the NES has all the next best RPGs.

Saying a 2bpp console has better graphics than a 4bpp console is a simple statement against fact

This statement is insanely stupid. Zoltor's name is brought up way too often for such comparisons, this exceeds even him, so where am I to go to, xdragonwarrior? It's like saying that the Jaguar controller is better than the MD, SNES, NES, PS, and Saturn pads because it has more buttons, fact.

SMS sprites have as much colour as each developer thought appropriate on a game by game basis.

Sure, and SNES shmups have as much slowdown as each developer thought appropriate on a game by game basis.

re the colour contest: I never declared my preferences applied in any way to people other than myself. However you can skim that NES vs SMS thread and find others who were not swayed by the SMS's supposedly superior graphics.

Donald Duck has colour use like the character is supposed to have, Mickey Mouse has colour colour use like the character is supposed to have, Batman has as much colour as he is supposed to have etc.

Batman looks the same--purple--on SMS as he does on the NES. Plus you're overlooking original and exclusive games, which matter more. No SMS game looks as good as Zelda, SMB 2 or 3, or Star Tropics, so I don't care if the main sprites and occasionally a background or two illustrate a little more fidelity to franchises I've no concern for in the first place. No I don't like how SMS backgrounds tend to be handled.

All of those characters look very low colour in NES games, really noticeably bad, they're just rough approximations of the original characters, and generally look like the designer's ran out of colours before they could do all the important areas (Batman has no face for instance until the sequel)

Batman Returns is hideous on SMS and plays worse. Feel free though to tell me how much better the original Batman and Return of the Joker look on SMS.

The rest of your questions were already answered by my previous post including the following which I'm going to try to spell out for you again.

Whether testing it or not, a game which gives you three lives to complete the game

I just told you I wasn't playing them to completion. How could I be, it's hundred of games we're talking about? Having only 3 lives enter in to the equation for only a very few games on any system, shit, Bucky O'Hare doesn't get that hard till he's collected all his friends which is four full zones divided into a few stages each.
The only thing I was unclear about was that "moveset", that was hasty. To make it clearer, the things often covered in manuals w/o any hint in games are the nature of powerups and their appearance, ie so I don't try to recover my health with a landmine. Likewise if I haven't played a game for awhile I can refresh my memory about some tricky point later on in the game before beginning anew--rather than just having to play the game twice through in a row. And as for state-saving to skip some irritating early part and see what the game's like later here's an exm, Bayou Billy. Loads of people hate Bayou Billy and go on about how cheap and repetitive and whatever else it is as if the entire game consists of kicking crocodiles in a swamp. The game has a ton of variety, the variety's just not all in the first lv. Using state saves when I'm out of patience seems to me a better approach than never seeing the second lv of any game whose first is tricky or uninviting. Most of the SMS game I tried were so dull I'd have stopped after the first lv reset or checkpoint if savestates weren't available--not all, Quartet was pretty good...not so good as Bayou Billy but there you are.

[Christuserloeser]

Having said that, I think many of its games are undermined by poor presentation. A high color count doesn't really matter if the art direction and design sensibility look amateurish, and innovative ideas don't go far if the game's play control feels sloppy and subpar. I can't think of any contemporaneous first-party games from Nintendo that look as shoddy as E-SWAT, for example. In general I find that SMS games often (not always) lack the extra polish that makes the best NES games feel so immersive -- they're on a par with Legend of Kage, so to speak, and not Contra.

Hm, I think I know what you mean, but most of the games I think of in this context are late arcade or Mega Drive conversions. Original SMS games like Golden Axe Warrior, Borgman (aka Cyborg Hunter), Zillion (II), Bomber Raid, Scramble Spirits, Power Strike (II), Ninja Gaiden, Master of Darkness, Submarine Attack, Psychic World, Masters of Combat, or Running Battle all look pretty nifty. Not to mention the games I listed in my earlier post.

[sheath]

The same thing can be said for the Mega Drive, the 32X, the Saturn, and the DC, but Sega systems do not get a free pass just cz Sega always killed them off early. The Saturn does not get the DreamCast library added to its side when pitted against the Playstation, the SMS does not get the Genesis added to its side when pitted against the NES. And apart from Phantasy Star II the `89-`90 Genesis vs NES libraries are lopsided in Nintendo's favour. Plus the NES has all the next best RPGs.

I agree, and I am not trying to give the Master System or any Sega system a "pass" for being cut off early. My point is, and will remain, that consumers of the mass market type were not sitting around and comparing games across platform on systems from the same generation. If they were comparing anything it was games on the same system, first and foremost, and then games on the shelf at retail or in print magazines.

I can find no way to take the entire NES library and honestly lay it out against only the Master System. If the NES were the legendary system it is remembered as today it would have trounced the Master System clearly from 1986-1990, but it barely edged out a win by the end of that spread. Even that is despite the fact that Nintendo had locked in the retailers and third parties during the same time.

This statement is insanely stupid. Zoltor's name is brought up way too often for such comparisons, this exceeds even him, so where am I to go to, xdragonwarrior? It's like saying that the Jaguar controller is better than the MD, SNES, NES, PS, and Saturn pads because it has more buttons, fact.

This is sort of like arguing that more aesthetically pleasing art work can be created within dot art is better with fewer color pencils or more color pencils. The answer is it depends on the art and the expectations of the viewer.

re the colour contest: I never declared my preferences applied in any way to people other than myself. However you can skim that NES vs SMS thread and find others who were not swayed by the SMS's supposedly superior graphics.

Batman looks the same--purple--on SMS as he does on the NES. Plus you're overlooking original and exclusive games, which matter more. No SMS game looks as good as Zelda, SMB 2 or 3, or Star Tropics, so I don't care if the main sprites and occasionally a background or two illustrate a little more fidelity to franchises I've no concern for in the first place. No I don't like how SMS backgrounds tend to be handled.

Batman Returns is hideous on SMS and plays worse. Feel free though to tell me how much better the original Batman and Return of the Joker look on SMS.

I don't know about Return of the Joker on the Master System, but on the N64 the game is fricking hideous.

I would only compare Return of the Joker on NES to Shadow Dancer on Master System.

I can't agree that Golvellius and Golden Axe Warrior are artistically inferior to Zelda, and the Alex Kidd and Wonderboy games seem very comparable to me with the Mario Brothers games. I am equally unimpressed with them all. I haven't played Star Tropics.

I do agree that backgrounds tend to be uninteresting, muted, or just not there on the Master System. But I see the same problem on the NES and even the TG16 to a larger degree than I would like. I can admit to having a strong case of Nintendo envy back in the day though, and that envy was enflamed by no Master System games looking or sounding exactly like an NES game I enjoyed playing. This lead me to buy an NES a year after I bought the Master System, but then I proceeded to buy unique NES games rather than the ones I had played at friend's houses.

[Thenewguy]

This statement is insanely stupid. It's like saying that the Jaguar controller is better than the MD, SNES, NES, PS, and Saturn pads because it has more buttons, fact.

nonsensical comparison

Having more buttons on a controller is not the same as giving developers choice of using up to 15 colours per sprite, and 16 per background tile, if an SMS programmer wants to use a shitty 3 colours for their sprites, and have their sprite's face the same colour as their clothes then they can, funnily enough that doesn't often happen.

Sure, and SNES shmups have as much slowdown as each developer thought appropriate on a game by game basis.

nonsensical comparison

Seriously, are you even trying anymore?

Master System developers can do whatever they want with the sprites, they can put three or four colours into them, put as many as they feel they need, or max them out with 15 colours just for the sake of it (which, I might add, they never do),

What has this got to do with SNES slowdown? the answer is, nothing. SNES action games either have slowdown, or the developers take the time to optimise everything and/or design around it to get rid of it. SMS sprites aren't forced to have tons of colours, they aren't even forced to have overly bold colours, you act like the SMS doesn't have a whole ton of different types of colours, and a larger useable pallette than the NES, when in fact the system has 4 or 5 variations of most colours, and worse still the colour use is so much more free that you can dither and mix huge varieties of colours on top of that.

You're just being very, very silly now, this usually happens to people when their standpoint has disintegrated, and they no longer have a logical route of argumentation, and is a calling card of bias.

Batman looks the same--purple--on SMS as he does on the NES.

Batman's face is blue on the NES, I mean, seriously, do you guys become blind to this stuff when you play nothing but NES during your childhood or something?! jeez, sometimes I feel very thankful that I had access to so much different stuff when I was a kid.

This is sort of like arguing that more aesthetically pleasing art work can be created within dot art is better with fewer color pencils or more color pencils.

The guy with more colour pencils can still choose to only use a few of them, so he is at no disadvantage.

[StarMist]

Having more buttons on a controller is not the same as giving developers choice of using up to 15 colours per sprite
nonsensical comparison

It's exactly the same, it's more options. And if you've never played a game where it was obvious the designers hadn't enough buttons to route all their commands to then you really are just the review-jockey people accuse you of being.

Master System developers can do whatever they want with the sprites

Supposedly, but they never did. With very few exceptions, some of which are Sega's (and obviously 1st party is bound to have that distinction), all SMS games have the same clumpy look.

What has this got to do with SNES slowdown?

The answer is: both are system-wide failings that impair every game they occur in.

Batman's face is blue on the NES

So what? there's only half of it to see, the top half's under a visor. Or are you blind to how shitty the whole SMS game looks?

Batman Returns on SMS:
gfs_88119_2_5.jpg

189739-batman-returns-sega-master-system-screenshot-the-penguins.png

139997-batman-returns-sega-master-system-screenshot-watch-out-for.png

Batman on NES
gfs_3251_2_3.jpg
gfs_39466_2_3.jpg

Batman Returns on NES is a notoriously subpar game but it does have a totally distinct face colour for him. I can't put any more images directly in this post so here's a link: http://img.gamefaqs.net/screens/e/5/8/gfs_39467_2_1.jpg

[tomaitheous]

Total library, as in 1985-1994, the NES wins because of its later years yes. When the two systems were actually competing in the same market though, it is far from clear which is the winner.

Wait. You mean the NES vs the SMS back in '86-90? Even before 1990, it was just blatantly clear the NES was the winner. Hell, parents were calling anything 'video game' related as 'Nintendo'. As in "he's playing Nintendo" etc when referring to any video game stuff (arcade game, computer games, etc). That is to say, it became so popular in society that even older-far removed people from the video game scene knew the word Nintendo. Sega never achieved that sort of recognition, not even when it started to dominate with the Genesis in mid '92 up. Also never mind the fact that NES consoles and games were everywhere and SMS was practically no where. Pawn shops sold NES games, used book stores were selling NES carts, block buster/major video/any-video rental stores were renting NES carts, flee markets with micro business tents were selling used NES carts, and every toy shop/store in town sold NES stuff. The SMS wasn't *even* 1/4 the popularity as the NES. Much less than that.

Even back in '87, when you could actually find some SMS stuff in a few stores - the NES was just killing it. I only knew of one kid from school (or anywhere), from the span of '87 to '90, that had an SMS.

As far as detail and backgrounds and colors; the sms has the clear advantage in both color and color per area. But it's still limited like the NES as far as how many unique tiles it can show per background. That's why they tend to be just as lacking in detail overall (overall; because there will be exceptions).

[Kamahl]

Despite the blue face, Batman for the NES looks better than batman returns on the SMS. Much more interesting tilework.

[sheath]

Wait. You mean the NES vs the SMS back in '86-90? Even before 1990, it was just blatantly clear the NES was the winner. Hell, parents were calling anything 'video game' related as 'Nintendo'. As in "he's playing Nintendo" etc when referring to any video game stuff (arcade game, computer games, etc). That is to say, it became so popular in society that even older-far removed people from the video game scene knew the word Nintendo. Sega never achieved that sort of recognition, not even when it started to dominate with the Genesis in mid '92 up. Also never mind the fact that NES consoles and games were everywhere and SMS was practically no where. Pawn shops sold NES games, used book stores were selling NES carts, block buster/major video/any-video rental stores were renting NES carts, flee markets with micro business tents were selling used NES carts, and every toy shop/store in town sold NES stuff. The SMS wasn't *even* 1/4 the popularity as the NES. Much less than that.

Even back in '87, when you could actually find some SMS stuff in a few stores - the NES was just killing it. I only knew of one kid from school (or anywhere), from the span of '87 to '90, that had an SMS.

As far as detail and backgrounds and colors; the sms has the clear advantage in both color and color per area. But it's still limited like the NES as far as how many unique tiles it can show per background. That's why they tend to be just as lacking in detail overall (overall; because there will be exceptions).

Sorry, I didn't qualify that statement clearly enough. I thought the discussion was still about which library was obviously better and my comment was entirely about that. I don't think Master System sales ever even touched NES sales in the US, and the Master System's retail presence was also never anywhere near that of the NES.

-edit-

Also, Sunsoft Batman on NES rocks to no end.

[Gogogadget]

Batman on the NES is such a good game, even if he doesn't have a face colour, like that really matters.

[goldenband]

Interesting post about NES vs. SMS hardware issues from TmEE. I'm still trying to figure out how much the presentation issues I mentioned earlier have to do with inherent limitations in the SMS VDP -- limitations that could be overcome (or so says TmEE) with the kind of extra hardware included with many NES titles.