Why is the SNES so slow?

[Kamahl]

Really ? So why are people posting about the Mega Drive, Saturn and various other machines and not keeping the discussion 'only' about the Snes and why it featured a slow processor.

Because the answer was given in the first page of the thread, it has a shitty processor. Of course the discussion would progress into "just how much of a difference a better processor makes" and "just how important are effects in hardware".

[Team Andromeda]

Because the answer was given in the first page of the thread, it has a shitty processor.

Technical discussions you mean .

[Zebbe]

Some games on the SNES there were not slow and showed impressive spite handling like Smash TV Road Runner: Death Valley Rally and not all SNES racers were flat like with Top Gear 1 and II, Super 4Wd

Yeah, but those few exceptions don't prove much, as most SNES games are slow and most versions are slower compared to counterparts on other consoles of that generation. It's like saying Ristar and Panorama Cotton proves the Mega Drive has superb colour potential. It's true those games look good, but there are many more like them on SNES and TG-16 compared to on Mega Drive.

People need to realize ALL consoles have their weaknesses, and if it isn't in the hardware it is in the price or devkits.

[sheath]

Death Valley Rally feels really dumbed down for a platformer, and it suffers from excessively bland flat backgrounds. The running mechanics feel very stiff to me. I'm only bringing it up because it comes up in Genesis SNES comparisons frequently, and aside from comparing it to the Genesis Road Runner game I don't see the point.

[Kamahl]

People need to realize ALL consoles have their weaknesses, and if it isn't in the hardware it is in the price or devkits.

Even the big monsters (Neo Geo, Sharp X68000) have areas where they're worse than the MD or SNES. And I'm not talking price .

[Smii]

This thread needs to be on audio-book so I can listen to it when I need to get some sleep. ;P

[Barone]

Yeah, but those few exceptions don't prove much, as most SNES games are slow and most versions are slower compared to counterparts on other consoles of that generation. It's like saying Ristar and Panorama Cotton proves the Mega Drive has superb colour potential. It's true those games look good, but there are many more like them on SNES and TG-16 compared to on Mega Drive.

People need to realize ALL consoles have their weaknesses, and if it isn't in the hardware it is in the price or devkits.

This.

Even the big monsters (Neo Geo, Sharp X68000) have areas where they're worse than the MD or SNES. And I'm not talking price .

And FM Towns too. I don't know exactly why but it's not hard to find a FM Towns game with static background and/or no parallax at all.

[Kamahl]

And FM Towns too. I don't know exactly why but it's not hard to find a FM Towns game with static background and/or no parallax at all.

I unfortunately don't know much about the FM Towns hardware, good info is almost impossible to find.

[Thenewguy]

How would the Amiga 500 have done at shooters if there'd been much more porting from Japanese arcade games? is the capability there? (judging by Disposable Hero I'd imagine the answer would be yes).

What are Amiga bob's like in comparison to SNES and Mega Drive sprites? impossible to put down a definite figure?

Disposable Hero looks like its running in a really high resolution, my imagination?

[magicalsoundshower]

Metamor Jupiter

A bit late, but thanks for mentioning this game, it looks and sounds badass. And I thought I knew all the cool PCE (CD) games. The system never ceases to surprise/amaze.

Disposable Hero probably only runs at 320x200 pixels and only looks sharper thanks to good graphics design (I can't really think of any Amiga games that used the 640x400 mode for anything besides static screens or dashboards). It also looks like the game completely lacks parallax because pulling it off on the Amiga is kind of a pain. Personally, I think Apidya will always be my favorite Amiga shooter. I admit it mostly doesn't use parallax either (but when it does, it looks awesome) but I've always felt you don't realy miss it in most levels.

[Black_Tiger]

A bit late, but thanks for mentioning this game, it looks and sounds badass. And I thought I knew all the cool PCE (CD) games. The system never ceases to surprise/amaze.

Metamor Jupitor also has that Castlevania IV/Trouble Shooter rotating tunnel effect, but actually uses the PCE's 'psuedo third layer' trick to give it a shaded gradient to roll across. There is also what appears to be real-time scaling and rotating sprites, but they render extremely slow and it is strictly a novelty. There is some mosaic and other effects in the game too.

[NeoZeedeater]

We have kind of moved past the Genesis/TG16 shooter debate but I felt like doing a more thorough look at the selections on each system for my own personal interest to see if my opinion changed. I figure it won't hurt to post it here.

Looking through lists for both, these are what I consider good shooters on them -


Duo

1943 Kai
Aeroblasters
After Burner II
Ai Cho Aniki
Air Zonk
Alzadick
Atomic Robo Kid Special
Avenger
Blazing Lazers
Cho Aniki
Coryoon
Download
Download 2
Fantasy Zone
Final Soldier
Forgotten Worlds
Galaga '90
Gate of Thunder
Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire
Gradius II
Hana Tahka Daka
Kiaidan 00
Kyukyoku Tiger
L-Dis
Lords of Thunder
Macross 2036
Magical Chase
Parodius
CD Denjin: Rockabilly Tengoku
Psychic Storm
Nexzr Special
Rabio Lepus Special
R-Type Complete CD
Saint Dragon
Salamander
Soldier Blade
Star Parodier
Super Darius II
Super Raiden
Super Star Soldier
Sylphia
Tatsujin
Rayxanber III


Genesis/Sega CD

AH-3 Thunderstrike
Air Buster
Android Assault
Battle Mania 2
Biohazard Battle
Desert Strike
Elemental Master
Eliminate Down
Gaiares
Gley Lancer
Granada
Grind Stormer
Keio's Flying Squadron
Insector-X
Jungle Strike
Lightening Force
Mega SWIV
MERCS
MUSHA
Night Striker
Panorama Cotton
Phelios
Raiden Trad
Rambo III
Ranger-X
Red Zone
Robo Aleste
Sol Deace/Feace
Soldiers of Fortune
Soul Star
Steel Empire
Subterrania
Super Fantasy Zone
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Trouble Shooter
Truxton
Twinkle Tale
Urban Strike
Wings of Wor


- If a game came out on both, I listed the best one (usually the Duo version) in most cases. There were a few where I felt there were unique strengths to both.

- I included all kinds of shooters except run 'n guns because of the strong platform element (Ranger-X was borderline but seemed shooter-ish enough), FPS, and gun games. Gun games like T2, Body Count, etc. played with a controller aren't much different than rail shooters, though. If I did include these genres, it would be a major boost in the Genesis' favour.

- I didn't list 32X or SuperGrafx games.

- Browsing through lists was more work than I thought it would be. I hope I didn't miss anything awesome.


Both have amazing shooter line ups. There is a bit of a quantity advantage to the Turbo but I think the Genesis makes up for that in other ways: more variety because of Western games, 3d shooters with hardware scaling. Like I said before, I can understand thinking the Duo is the better shooter system but I don't see how it kills the Genesis given how strong the latter is in this genre.

[Zebbe]

Even the big monsters (Neo Geo, Sharp X68000) have areas where they're worse than the MD or SNES. And I'm not talking price .

Please show some examples.

[TheSonicRetard]

Please show some examples.

I can think of an area where the Neo Geo is inferior to the SNES - alpha blending. Can't do it.

I can't think of a single instance where the x68k is inferior to the Genesis.

[Barone]

I unfortunately don't know much about the FM Towns hardware, good info is almost impossible to find.

Muscle Bomber (Saturday Night Slam Masters) and SSFII are two examples of what I said (hummm, both Capcom games...). Both with amazing soundtracks (everybody prizes the 3DO soudtrack for the SSFIIX but it is just a copy of the FM Towns version released earlier).

There are 2 main companies that ported arcade games for the FM Towns: CRI and Ving. CRI is that crap that we all know responsible for Galaxy Force II and After Burner III on the Sega CD (actually a downport of the FM Towns version). Most of the CRI games are pure crap, so After Burner, After Burner II and After Burner III on the FM Towns are actually inferior to After Burner II on the MD or on the PCE.
OTOH, Ving (maybe you know him from the PS1 and Saturn ports of Night Striker) was always superb. God, if Ving had developed/ported games to the Mega CD we certainly would have a different game (no pun intended) in our hands. Splatterhouse, Chase HQ, Bubble Bobble, Final Blow (far superior verison compared to the MD one; actually this game was good), Image Fight, Kyukyoku Tiger (supreme version), Operation Wolf, PuLiRuLa, The New Zealand Story (perfect port of the original version, not that one ported to the MD), Viewpoint (the best port of this game), Volified (again, the original one not the modified version on the MD)... All superb ports by Ving.
Developer makes a lot of difference. I wish that Ving could have port at least half o those titles to the Mega CD, like Psygnosis smartly did.

Here's a complete masterlist for the FM Towns.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=0&output=html

All games are rare, some are rarer, others are holy grails owned by 2 or 3 collectors idiots that put their asses over the copies and don't pretend to move them.
UNZ emulator works amazingly good 99% of the times and it's like 1923912.093 (or .094, IDK...) times easier to configure than WinUAE, so maybe you should try it.

We have kind of moved past the Genesis/TG16 shooter debate but I felt like doing a more thorough look at the selections on each system for my own personal interest to see if my opinion changed. I figure it won't hurt to post it here.

Looking through lists for both, these are what I consider good shooters on them -




- If a game came out on both, I listed the best one (usually the Duo version) in most cases. There were a few where I felt there were unique strengths to both.

- I included all kinds of shooters except run 'n guns because of the strong platform element (Ranger-X was borderline but seemed shooter-ish enough), FPS, and gun games. Gun games like T2, Body Count, etc. played with a controller aren't much different than rail shooters, though. If I did include these genres, it would be a major boost in the Genesis' favour.

- I didn't list 32X or SuperGrafx games.

- Browsing through lists was more work than I thought it would be. I hope I didn't miss anything awesome.


Both have amazing shooter line ups. There is a bit of a quantity advantage to the Turbo but I think the Genesis makes up for that in other ways: more variety because of Western games, 3d shooters with hardware scaling. Like I said before, I can understand thinking the Duo is the better shooter system but I don't see how it kills the Genesis given how strong the latter is in this genre.

Awesome post. Rep'ed.
Some will complain saying that you have stretched the "shooter" concept a bit but I actually agree with you for the most part.

I have edited your lists 'cause I think that you missed some obligatory titles and in some cases we may argue about the need to include other duplicated games.
The games that I have included are in bold. None of the originals were removed.

Duo

1943 Kai
Aeroblasters
After Burner II
Ai Cho Aniki
Air Zonk
Alzadick
Atomic Robo Kid Special
Avenger
Blazing Lazers
Cho Aniki
Coryoon
Download
Download 2
Fantasy Zone
Final Soldier
Forgotten Worlds
Galaga '90
Gate of Thunder
Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire
Gradius II
Hana Tahka Daka
Hellfire S For the 2-Player mode, cutscenes and awesome arranged music.
Kiaidan 00
Kyukyoku Tiger
L-Dis
Lords of Thunder
Macross 2036
Magical Chase
Ordyne A true classic IMO. Very solid game and a great port.
Parodius
CD Denjin: Rockabilly Tengoku
Psychic Storm
Nexzr Special
R-Type Complete CD
Rabio Lepus Special
Rayxanber II IMO better than III.
Rayxanber III
Saint Dragon
Salamander
Seirei Senshi Spriggan Another obligatory GREAT shooter.
Soldier Blade
Spriggan Mark 2: Re-Terraform Project A must. Awesome.
Star Parodier
Super Darius Even if only for the fact that this is the only console port (IDK if there's another but certainly not close to this one) and it's a good port IMO.
Super Darius II
Super Raiden
Super Star Soldier
Sylphia
Tatsujin
Valkyrie no Densetsu In the same vein that you included Elemental Master and other. A classic game by Namco. Good port.
Zero Wing For the (arguable) extras.


Genesis/Sega CD

AH-3 Thunderstrike
After Burner II The scaling, colors and music are superior on the PCE but the gameplay is better here. Also, as a side note, this version supports the XE-1AP analog controller and works great with that. It's way easier to perform the all movements and certainly increases your precision. Both directions and acceleration controls are analog.
Air Buster
Android Assault
Battle Mania 2
Biohazard Battle
Darius II Mainly for the fact that the zoomed in camera of the PCE CD version can really complicate things in some stages. The colors are better on the PCE but the explosion effect on the MD is awesome. The camera on the MD version makes it easier to play, also compared to the Saturn version IMO.
Desert Strike
Elemental Master
Eliminate Down
Fire Shark A classic Toaplan game and a solid conversion IMO. I think it's in the same level of Kyukyoku Tiger and since you have included it...
Forgotten Worlds Mainly for the 2-Player mode but also for the parallax lovers.
Gaiares
Gley Lancer
Granada
Grind Stormer
Keio's Flying Squadron
Hellfire Another classic Toaplan shooter, I can't see why it should not be included. Besides the parallax, I think that the graphic details are better on the MD. Color are better on PCE, as expected. The gameplay also has its differences. The MD version massacres you with checkpoints...
Insector-X
Jungle Strike
Lightening Force
Mega SWIV
MERCS
MUSHA
Night Striker
Panorama Cotton
Phelios
Raiden Trad
Rambo III
Ranger-X
Red Zone
Robo Aleste
Slap Fight MD For the great MD exclusive mode. The original game is weak IMO.
Sol Deace/Feace
Soldiers of Fortune
Soul Star
Steel Empire
Subterrania
Super Fantasy Zone
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Trouble Shooter
Truxton
Twinkle Tale
Undead Line I can't see why you left this great game out from your list.
Urban Strike
Wings of Wor
Zero Wing Another classic that I think should have been included. The music is far superior to the arcade/PCE CD version (both mono).

We may discuss the differences. I would like to hear your opinion.