Street Fighter II': Special Champion Edition

[goldenband]

Not to keep this going, but:

No, but it does look and sound $8-$12 better than SNES MKII

Looks better, yes; sounds better, no (the missing and incorrect SFX are very disruptive IMHO); plays better, absolutely not -- it's dramatically worse than the SNES version, and I'm perennially bewildered when people claim otherwise (sorry, Agostinho! ). Everything just feels all wrong to me, and several combos that work in the arcade and SNES versions don't work on the 32X version. And on multiple occasions I've had the game fail to respond to button presses, e.g. when charging Jax's special move with LK and attempting to HK after jumping backwards, which makes me wonder whether the game's six-button controller support is buggy (though I think things like that happened occasionally in Genesis MK1 as well). Maybe it's less of an issue for people who mainly play other characters, dunno, but they certainly messed Jax up.

I'm bemused by the way you keep emphasizing how "the facts" prove that the 32X version is the better port; something about that rubs me the wrong way. Partly it's because that method of argument tends to privilege measurements that easily lend themselves to quantitative analysis (which are interesting and no doubt factual, but not necessarily the central issue that makes or breaks a game) over more subjective things that are harder to assess quantitatively (like gameplay and player enjoyment), but are arguably more crucial to a game's success.

Personally I was psyched to get the 32X version (not BITD, but a few years ago), and was looking forward to a near-arcade-perfect experience, but was thoroughly disappointed once I got it. Somehow it just feels like a chore to play, and though I got used to some of its quirks, the 32X port never offered the kind of fun I had with the arcade or SNES versions.

Anyway, a SFII:SCE on the 32X wouldn't really get me that excited; I'd much rather see things like Revenge of Death Adder or a faithful port of Galaxy Force II.

[j_factor]

I wonder how faithful of a port of Galaxy Force II would be possible. The game is more demanding than After Burner / Space Harrier, and even the Saturn version is not perfect.

[Da_Shocker]

I think you're right--that is if I got your gist right. Perhaps another poll should be conducted to see how many of Pier Solar's purchasers indeed own a 32X, with a second option how many would probably be induced to buy one if it meant getting another homebrew game. ----- Not however for some painted fossil like SFIICE.

I already asked Zebbe about working a homebrew game on the 32X and that's not gonna happen due to it being more complex than the Genesis and more of a limited installed userbase. I would assume that anybody that still plays Genesis games is hardcore and owns both a 32X and a SCD.

[sheath]

Not to keep this going, but:

Looks better, yes; sounds better, no (the missing and incorrect SFX are very disruptive IMHO); plays better, absolutely not -- it's dramatically worse than the SNES version, and I'm perennially bewildered when people claim otherwise (sorry, Agostinho! ). Everything just feels all wrong to me, and several combos that work in the arcade and SNES versions don't work on the 32X version. And on multiple occasions I've had the game fail to respond to button presses, e.g. when charging Jax's special move with LK and attempting to HK after jumping backwards, which makes me wonder whether the game's six-button controller support is buggy (though I think things like that happened occasionally in Genesis MK1 as well). Maybe it's less of an issue for people who mainly play other characters, dunno, but they certainly messed Jax up.

Yeah, I wouldn't know about Jax but I know that Liu Kang and Scorpion have some of their combos screwed up on the SNES version, or at least they are significantly easier to pull off on the Genesis/32X versions. As for the sound, I really am going to have to make a comparison video now, the SNES game is missing way more voice samples in normal combat scenes than the 32X game. If I recall correctly the SNES only has more samples with Shao Kahn and one or two other areas, in the average fight the 32X is way more sample rich and has higher quality samples besides.

As for the music, the SNES version's music is extremely muted and frequently off key as though the music itself is slowing down. Neither sounds like the Arcade, but I'd say the FM rendition on the Genesis/32X version is closer in sound quality and instruments. I usually have my mind changed about a lot of things when I do a video comparison though, some things just don't stand out all that easily while playing the games separately. I do think the 32X game has more frame rate dips when there's a lot of animation and blood on screen, but the SNES seems to be missing a lot of frames particularly in the standing animation.

I'm bemused by the way you keep emphasizing how "the facts" prove that the 32X version is the better port; something about that rubs me the wrong way. Partly it's because that method of argument tends to privilege measurements that easily lend themselves to quantitative analysis (which are interesting and no doubt factual, but not necessarily the central issue that makes or breaks a game) over more subjective things that are harder to assess quantitatively (like gameplay and player enjoyment), but are arguably more crucial to a game's success.

The 32X version is arguably superior, but the SNES game is of such high quality that we have to analyze every frame and play as every character to really see that. I'm pretty sure Agostinho did that, I always stick to a couple of characters in fighting games.

Personally I was psyched to get the 32X version (not BITD, but a few years ago), and was looking forward to a near-arcade-perfect experience, but was thoroughly disappointed once I got it. Somehow it just feels like a chore to play, and though I got used to some of its quirks, the 32X port never offered the kind of fun I had with the arcade or SNES versions.

This just sounds like pre-existing preference to me. Did you ever pop in the SNES version expecting it to be "Arcade perfect"? Especially after playing the Arcade game, the SNES disappoints me a lot more than the 32X version does.

Anyway, a SFII:SCE on the 32X wouldn't really get me that excited; I'd much rather see things like Revenge of Death Adder or a faithful port of Galaxy Force II.

I would too, but if anybody homebrews one of these Sega will just shut it down like they did Streets of Rage Remix.

I wonder how faithful of a port of Galaxy Force II would be possible. The game is more demanding than After Burner / Space Harrier, and even the Saturn version is not perfect.

I doubt they put too much effort into the Saturn port, but I haven't noticed anything that would set it as significantly worse than Galaxy Force II on MAME. For the 32X it's all about whether they would have to trim the levels to fit in the (miniscule) RAM or if they could just stream the levels from the cartridge.

[NeoVamp]

MKII on 32X was such a rush job, still so much missing stuff like sprites and endings and sounds.

Especially the endings, so you bother to add the intro and bio's but leave out the ending pictures?

fucking Probe couldn't optimize their way out of a paper bag, always redoing shit their way.

And its like a 32M cart no less, remember that MKII hack I helped with? that's 32M too but with about 95% of the voices reinstated,
all intro's, all bio's, all endings, and even MK1 stages and bio/ending pics for the secret chars!

Yet Probe couldn't even get ending pics in the 32X version.

[sheath]

Not to defend Probe or anything, but I think the 32X graphics would probably take up more space because they aren't tile based they're bitmap based. I'm sure compression could help either way on the cart, but that's just another layer of programming proficiency and time management Probe probably didn't have.

[Da_Shocker]

Sheath why on earth do you continue to defend Probe, when they had a shoddy track record with Sega systems. They botched MK ports on the Genesis, SCD, 32X, and Saturn. They fucked up Alien Trilogy and Die Hard Trilogy on the Saturn. Outside of Hexen which was better than the PSx version they sucked. Look at how better the Capcom ports were. Sure the voices were terrible but at least they had most of them in them and the music was what was in the arcade. Probe had 2 more chances to get MK2 right and they failed miserably each time. Were they really that gotdamn incompetent? I look at how MK3 turned out on the Genesis and UMK3 for the Saturn and there was no excuse for Probe to be so awful at these ports. I'm glad these fucktards went out of business.

[goldenband]

As for the sound, I really am going to have to make a comparison video now, the SNES game is missing way more voice samples in normal combat scenes than the 32X game. If I recall correctly the SNES only has more samples with Shao Kahn and one or two other areas, in the average fight the 32X is way more sample rich and has higher quality samples besides.

The 32X samples are definitely crisper, but I noticed a lot of missing and incorrect samples, ranging from Liu Kang's bicycle kick to (IIRC) the wrong scream samples being played for fatalities against Kitana/Mileena. Also, at least to some extent, it's not just how many samples are in one vs. the other, but which ones; like any feature, some elements are more important/memorable than others.

As for the music, the SNES version's music is extremely muted and frequently off key as though the music itself is slowing down.

"Off-key"? I don't remember anything going out of tune or any of the parts going out of sync with each other; I'll have to check this out.

This just sounds like pre-existing preference to me. Did you ever pop in the SNES version expecting it to be "Arcade perfect"? Especially after playing the Arcade game, the SNES disappoints me a lot more than the 32X version does.

Actually, I do remember being shocked at how close the SNES version was to the arcade, especially visually (and all the more so after its disastrous MK1 port). I'd played the arcade version a bit, but for obvious reasons ($$$) I ended up playing the SNES version pretty much exclusively for a while. Then at college, I spent a lot of time playing versus matches when they got an arcade machine, and everything I'd learned on the SNES version mapped on with no issues. Then when I went to apply the same tactics in the 32X version, nothing seemed right -- the hitboxes were in the wrong places, and like I said before, the combos didn't work and I repeatedly found my character not responding to certain move combinations.

And yeah, I do think it's reasonable to expect the 32X version to have everything the SNES version had at minimum, and then to improve upon that in every way. The release was heavily hyped (and still is by some folks), and the system itself is far more capable than the SNES. Multiple reviewers have claimed that the 32X version is the definitive home version of the game, and it does have an edge over the SNES in a few departments, but not the ones that count IMHO.

I would too, but if anybody homebrews one of these Sega will just shut it down like they did Streets of Rage Remix.

If the developers are foolish enough to do it in a very public manner and openly take pre-orders (or whatever), sure. But there are other ways to make a project happen.

[StarMist]

I'm bemused by the way you keep emphasizing how "the facts" prove that the 32X version is the better port; something about that rubs me the wrong way. Partly it's because that method of argument tends to privilege measurements that easily lend themselves to quantitative analysis (which are interesting and no doubt factual, but not necessarily the central issue that makes or breaks a game) over more subjective things that are harder to assess quantitatively (like gameplay and player enjoyment), but are arguably more crucial to a game's success.

This is how all argument is done here. I suppose you must be lauding sheath with the implication you expect more of him than of every other member.

I wonder how faithful of a port of Galaxy Force II would be possible. The game is more demanding than After Burner / Space Harrier, and even the Saturn version is not perfect.

GFII on the Saturn is a sample of Sega Ages laziness. Sure the less demanding games turned out fine but that's because they were less demanding. The Saturn could've run a perfect and enhanced port of GFII--one in 3D like Panzer Dragoon. With console development time the 32X should have been able to at least equal what the Saturn actually got.

[Chilly Willy]

I already asked Zebbe about working a homebrew game on the 32X and that's not gonna happen due to it being more complex than the Genesis and more of a limited installed userbase. I would assume that anybody that still plays Genesis games is hardcore and owns both a 32X and a SCD.

More complex IF you try to use the Genesis AND the 32X equally. It's arguably much more simple if you mostly ignore the Genesis side like I do. Then it's just an SH2, a plain frame buffer, and a PWM sound device... VERY simple. That's partly why I did my toolchain and ports of Wolf3D and Yeti3D - to show that the 32X really isn't all that complex to program for.

I would say the majority of 32Xs are in the hands of Sega fans, but nowhere near all of them are after new games. It's the same as with the Genesis itself, but scaled about 20:1 given the installed base we're talking about. In any case, it's all about reaching the people you wish to buy the product. Make a demo version and hit as many Sega forums as you can. Maybe submit a copy to places like Kotaku.

[Black_Tiger]

I'm not a Mortal Kombat fan and I haven't directly compared versions in recent years. But I bought MKII for 32X as soon as it was released and was pretty disappointed. Even if it is arguable better overall than the SNES version, I expected more of a generational leap from my next gen hardware.

[zetastrike]

That could be interesting, especially in comparison to Da Shocker's "proof" thread that nobody thinks the 32X should even exist. Isn't it interesting that we have this horrible failure of an add-on and yet you and I can talk about people picking one up without having to worry about scarcity bloating the price beyond reason? It's almost as though there are a lot of the devices out there even today.

Yeah, but how many of the 32Xs out there have the mixing cable with them? I've seen a ton of 32Xs in my area, but have never been able to source one with the cable. I had to resort to getting a loose one, then getting the cable and power brick online. Not that it was really inconvenient, but it's a bit of a disincentive to casual collectors knowing that it isn't easy to find a 32X with all the parts required to use it.

[muteKi]

http://shop.gametrog.com/SEGA-Genesi...AB-GEN132X.htm

As it turns out that happens to be a common enough problem that there are people that sell replacement cables. Larger issue really is that I don't think that many casual collectors would know much about the 32X in general or care very much.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Sheath why on earth do you continue to defend Probe, when they had a shoddy track record with Sega systems. They botched MK ports on the Genesis, SCD, 32X, and Saturn. They fucked up Alien Trilogy and Die Hard Trilogy on the Saturn. Outside of Hexen which was better than the PSx version they sucked. Look at how better the Capcom ports were. Sure the voices were terrible but at least they had most of them in them and the music was what was in the arcade. Probe had 2 more chances to get MK2 right and they failed miserably each time. Were they really that gotdamn incompetent? I look at how MK3 turned out on the Genesis and UMK3 for the Saturn and there was no excuse for Probe to be so awful at these ports. I'm glad these fucktards went out of business.

I think TA mentioned a while back that they simply published Hexen on the Saturn, a European team actually developed it. Probe developed the PS1 port, which could explain why the PS1 port is so bad.

The Saturn port of MK2 I think is by far the biggest slap in the face they produced.

[j_factor]

Alien Trilogy wasn't bad on the Saturn at all.