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Thread: Paprium: Official Thread

  1. #9721
    Toejam is a wiener. Master of Shinobi SEGA-Jorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokay View Post
    I agree with you that BOBC SE is not a AAA game, and that's it's perfectly fine. Shall everyone aim at PAPRIUM (supposed) quality? Be my guest and let's talk again in 10 years if you're still there.
    Also, BOBC SE was not sold at full price (compare its price to Tanglewood and Xenocrisis for instance, not dissing here).
    Papi Commando was quite cheap actually, considering its content and packaging ($50 incl. shipping if I recall properly).

    My point was more to ask for explanation regarding the very specific word "buggy".
    Having contributed to this game, I was wondering what exact bug(s) could be remaining... Then the guy tells he did not even play the game!
    This is quite disappointing.


    [edit] Yeah, let's end this misery :-)
    None of the homebrew games need to be AAA games, but what the hell is a AAA game on the Genesis now anyway? No one is asking for AAA games, we asking for Genesis games that are complete experiences, regardless of the size/scope. WM chose to go big, and they should make sure that before they take on a task like that, that their tech and art is in a place that can handle that sort of game. People always talk about how it will take 5-10 years to make a Genesis game with a small team, but all these games we love, were made with small teams, on nearly non-existent budgets, with none of the tech, knowledge, and 20+ years of knowhow that exist now.

    Altered beast was made in less than a year with a team of less than 8 people. Shining in the Darkness was made in less than a year with a team of 4 people, on a freaking small budget. I'm not saying that current teams need to work harder, or work faster, I'm saying, take on realistic projects, with realistic, achievable scopes of work.

    And then, make sure they are priced at a competitive value. $50-$65 works, but the games need to be on par with the stuff already on the console. Honestly, Tanglewood, Papi Commando, Tanzer, and Xeno Crisis (there are others as well, these are the ones that I could name off the top of my head...) are the only games approaching this retro gaming dev right.

  2. #9722
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert nihilblack's Avatar
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    Yep. One of the games I like the most on the SNES, Wild Guns, was fully made (from planning to the finished game) in 5 months by just three guys (with help from another two).

    http://shmuplations.com/wildguns/

  3. #9723
    Training-in-Hedgehog Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert tokay's Avatar
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    Teams were small indeed, but devs were making games as their day jobs.
    I clearly don't know the situation of everyone in the homebrew scene, but know for sure that some work on their games in the evening after a long day of work.
    I doubt that tools available nowadays can fully counterbalance this matter of fact.

  4. #9724
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    Quote Originally Posted by nihilblack View Post
    Yep. One of the games I like the most on the SNES, Wild Guns, was fully made (from planning to the finished game) in 5 months by just three guys (with help from another two).

    http://shmuplations.com/wildguns/


    The problem with WM has been concerning the Genesis games like paprium non existent work plan.

    The only game that was correctly planned and completed was pier solar hd by tulio. I remember completing the 3 min HD opening animation which was pretty complex within only 3 months. This allowed it to be used in the game trailer for the 2014 e3.

    Another example were the fmv and pixel assets on Vixen 357 that I started and completed between 2013 and 2015 and even a trailer (way before paprium trailer). Nothing was ever done with all this work, otherwise the game would have been out since 2016.

    Another example with extremely complex pixel art (much more than paprium or any other indie md games) was the creation of the intro of the neo geo game Kraut Buster for which I produced the boards, concepts and pixelart within 3 months. This pixel art was then worked on by 2 other people and finalized within 2 months.

    So in the end, it's just a matter of ability, seriousness and nothing else.
    Last edited by Arm; 08-01-2019 at 06:05 PM.

  5. #9725
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert nihilblack's Avatar
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    I wish we could see your work on Vixen 357 some day. You always do an amazing work, so I hope you get to work in more MD projects!

  6. #9726
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    Thanks! The artwork of vixen main character was in stika's documentary. Actually you might have seen more of my work if you played Tanglewood as I handled the characters animation. Who knows what the future holds?
    Last edited by Arm; 08-01-2019 at 03:23 PM.

  7. #9727
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-Training kentosama's Avatar
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    Hello, I allow myself to react.

    I think that hoping that small amateurs teams make pro games as in 1990 is demand a lot. It should be noted that many developers do not have much experience and we usually learn on the fly.

    If I take my case, I had never developed on a retro console and I did not know very well the Mega Drive. It's wonderful to create a game and learn to develop on this console, but obviously we can't get out a big games in short time.

    Nevertheless, I am relatively happy when people are convinced that IRENA is a game released in the time. It shows that by working hard everything is possible.

    The problem is that a physically produced game costs money and is usually small productions. So, if you like to be able to play new games on Mega Drive in 2019, never forget that behind people are working on their free time and that it's important to support them even if the games price may seem too high. A game on PlayStation 4 or Switch are sold in millions, a Mega Drive game certainly between 1000 and 5000 copies....

  8. #9728
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    I mean, there's a reason why these old consoles were abandoned in the first place.

    On the other hand, we're at the point where modern AAA games are sold for less than these cartridges, and if we want to play smaller games we can always use an emulator… so yeah, I'm afraid expectations are that if you're gonna charge that money, then the game's polish better match the price tag (at least on the same level as commercial releases back then).

    We could probably try to sell standalone cartridges, but people are nitpicky and demand box with color manual (despite that most manuals used to be monochrome…) and extra goodies. Also, pixel-level recreations of the Sega logo and boxart design of a specific region during a specific era or go away. I'm surprised they aren't demanding that the cartridge be sold through a local store, but that's probably because nearly all of them went bust :​O)

    The alternative is to sell ROMs and rely on the honor system (it's not like you're all going to sell much anyway). But developers hate that as well and are also obsessed that some Alibaba guy will slap it on a cartridge and sell it for $8.


    And the final obvious alternative is, of course, to just stop pretending we can make money off this and treat it as a free hobby :​O) Most people who really care about using real hardware and aren't doing it to fill up a shelf are going to be using a Mega Everdrive or Mega SD instead.

  9. #9729
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentosama View Post
    Hello, I allow myself to react.

    I think that hoping that small amateurs teams make pro games as in 1990 is demand a lot. It should be noted that many developers do not have much experience and we usually learn on the fly.

    If I take my case, I had never developed on a retro console and I did not know very well the Mega Drive. It's wonderful to create a game and learn to develop on this console, but obviously we can't get out a big games in short time.

    Nevertheless, I am relatively happy when people are convinced that IRENA is a game released in the time. It shows that by working hard everything is possible.

    The problem is that a physically produced game costs money and is usually small productions. So, if you like to be able to play new games on Mega Drive in 2019, never forget that behind people are working on their free time and that it's important to support them even if the games price may seem too high. A game on PlayStation 4 or Switch are sold in millions, a Mega Drive game certainly between 1000 and 5000 copies....
    WM wasn't considered a small homebrew team after 2012. It had a successful KS with more than 200k funds and also several games in dev with amongst them 2 licensed games, experience in material production and the rights to publish on Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft systems.

  10. #9730
    Tiido's apprentice Road Rasher TulioAdriano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentosama View Post
    A game on PlayStation 4 or Switch are sold in millions, a Mega Drive game certainly between 1000 and 5000 copies....
    I just wanted to add that, while that's true for many games, it's far from the reality that most independent developers meet after years of hard work, finally releasing their game in a modern platform. Sure there are very successful ones, but the vast majority of independent developers tend to disappear after disappointing sales. There are a lot of moving parts in getting your game to the right players and breaking through, and unfortunately, there are amazingly talented developers out there that never see the success they deserve because they lack the other abilities on the game business.

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  11. #9731
    Hero of Algol
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    ^This.

    I recommend reading this postmortem for an example of what Tulio is saying:
    https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DanH...Postmortem.php

    Some of the comments there are also worth reading.

  12. #9732
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    With Paprium the design process was just nuts, it seemed like every time Fonzie posted an update he had added a new feature. I don't know anyone who manages large projects like that, usually you have a planning phase and once that's over the design is essentially frozen. The fact that it was both a hardware and software project made it 10x harder. On a modern system there is no need to discuss which DSP/FPGA/Bluetooth module to add to the cart.

    Games like Kraut Buster are very impressive but they also retail for around $450-500, anyone expecting that kind of quality on a retro system should plan to pay accordingly.

  13. #9733
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Games like Kraut Buster are very impressive but they also retail for around $450-500, anyone expecting that kind of quality on a retro system should plan to pay accordingly.
    Or just pay 1/10 the price for the original, much better game lol. Even easier with Paprium, just pay for something that isn't air .
    Last edited by Vludi; 08-05-2019 at 05:11 PM.

  14. #9734
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher Stifu's Avatar
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    Kento, it is understandable that developers nowadays may not have much time or experience. It only becomes a problem once you've taken everyone's money and leave them hanging for years.

  15. #9735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vludi View Post
    Or just pay 1/10 the price for the original, much better game lol. Even easier with Paprium, just pay for something that isn't air .
    By "original" do you mean Metal Slug? Because that wasn't a $50 game at launch either.

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