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Thread: Mortal Kombat III

  1. #31
    Master of Shinobi Drixxel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    So is the argument that KI somehow deepened fighting game gameplay?
    Not at all. I was trying to explain the possibility that KI broadened the general public's understanding of combos, not that it enriched the one-on-one fighting experience. If you didn't know what a combo was before watching someone play KI, you did after. We're talking Joe Average Gamer here, the casual gamer, who makes up much of the gaming populace. Street Fighter II was a phenomenon, yes, and practically everyone had played it, yes, but combos are a deeper aspect to the gameplay that the average lad would be blissfully ignorant of.

    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    Frankly, you guys surprise me on this one, as I remember clearly that all who were into the gaming scene (I wouldn't classify that broad generalization as hardcore) -- to decent enough extent to, you know, be aware of it and maybe pick up an issue of EGM between matches in the arcade -- were aware of combos as THE aspect to fighting game gameplay, which SFII popularized back in 91.
    I personally have known about "combos" since the SNES release of Street Fighter II Turbo and the subsequent buying of a thick strategy guide describing in detail the SFII combo black magic. But nearly all of my friends at the time who played games knew little more about Street Fighter II than the quarter-circle forward motion for fancy projectiles. To visit the arcade was to watch as a handful of SFII pros kick the asses of each and every other weakling who didn't know half of what the SFII god to their left was even doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    I think in many ways that KI took the concept over the top and dumbed down the gameplay in the process. As most fighting junkies would argue in regards to Capcom's Versus series as well.
    Well at least we agree there. The Versus series is lowbrow flash.

    But really, popularizing a concept is not nearly as important as creating it, so SFII will always be the better game because it pioneered so much. The point of my argument is not to give Killer Instinct any credit for making the fighting genre a better place or that combos were a relative unknown until Killer Instinct. My point is this: Killer Instinct's fancy, attention-getting combos helped to educate the gaming ignorant to the ways of the combo. That is all.

  2. #32
    Road Rasher Dartagnan1083's Avatar
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    I remember Combo discussion in an old gamepro magazine from 1993. Mostly between MK1 and Street Fighter 2 Turbo.
    So they were in fact called combos before KI was ever released.

    The combo's in KI and MKIII are mostly there for flash.
    entering a combo breaker kills it.
    Combos in other fighting games are there for strategic and/or improvosational purposes. . .and in games like Virtua Fighter or Soul Calibur, you break it with a properly timed Tech-Roll or Parry. . .rather than hitting D-D-<C at your leisure.

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  3. #33
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    So is the argument that KI somehow deepened fighting game gameplay?
    Not at all. I was trying to explain the possibility that KI broadened the general public's understanding of combos, not that it enriched the one-on-one fighting experience. If you didn't know what a combo was before watching someone play KI, you did after. We're talking Joe Average Gamer here, the casual gamer, who makes up much of the gaming populace. Street Fighter II was a phenomenon, yes, and practically everyone had played it, yes, but combos are a deeper aspect to the gameplay that the average lad would be blissfully ignorant of.
    My argument is that, yes, KI's combos were more in your face and obvious due to that certainly, yet SFII's overall popularity was such that by the time KI came around combos were well-known and popular anyway. I simply don't buy that KI popularized what SFII created -- not when SFII was so much more popular than KI ever was. By sheer fanbase ratio alone, the issue should go to SFII -- even if the number of its players weren't as aware percentage-wise as KI's -- because it's popularity was of such a hugh-degree that the number of better-versed players in its following could very well have matched the number of semi-casual players on KI by 1994, thus making the point of KI's more overt combo system rather moot as the terminology was already a part of the arcade and overall video game culture by the time of its release.

    I saw flash in KI, but felt no sense of revolution from it -- either as an individual or within the pre-teen/teenaged/war-vet burnout culture of the arcade scene. As far as broad popular culture, I don't think KI was really on the radar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    Well at least we agree there. The Versus series is lowbrow flash.

    But really, popularizing a concept is not nearly as important as creating it, so SFII will always be the better game because it pioneered so much. The point of my argument is not to give Killer Instinct any credit for making the fighting genre a better place or that combos were a relative unknown until Killer Instinct. My point is this: Killer Instinct's fancy, attention-getting combos helped to educate the gaming ignorant to the ways of the combo. That is all.
    Yet I still have my doubts as to the length of its reach on the subject as opposed to the game that originated the usage and terminilogy of the combo to begin with. SFII was so much bigger than KI -- one was a nuke and the other was a blip on the radar, quickly forogotten by comparison. Considering that, I don't know if KI can be considered the game that finally let the combo loose on the overall gaming populace -- I think that had already happened.

  4. #34
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartagnan1083
    I remember Combo discussion in an old gamepro magazine from 1993. Mostly between MK1 and Street Fighter 2 Turbo.
    So they were in fact called combos before KI was ever released.

    The combo's in KI and MKIII are mostly there for flash.
    entering a combo breaker kills it.
    Combos in other fighting games are there for strategic and/or improvosational purposes. . .and in games like Virtua Fighter or Soul Calibur, you break it with a properly timed Tech-Roll or Parry. . .rather than hitting D-D-<C at your leisure.
    In many ways, KI bastardized the combo -- the player would basically enter a code and then watch an intermission sequence for his trouble.

  5. #35
    Outrunner
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    Hmm, so we need to change that to Street Fighter II.
    Mel (aka Tritium)
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  6. #36
    Wildside Expert Fang's Avatar
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    MK3 sure brings back memories it was the last genesis I bought when they were first came out. I thought it sure did have the arcade feel to it.

  7. #37
    Nameless One janus's Avatar
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    Wow, and I thought only Gate of Thunder had the arcade feel!

    http://web.archive.org/web/200403191.../jturbo1-2.htm

  8. #38
    Master of Shinobi Drixxel's Avatar
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    Ohhhhhmy. Johnny Turbo. What a dapper dog.

    I was just reading over Mel's MKIII review again, and I thought of a simple enough way to reword that one troublesome sentence without removing the KI reference.

    "The combo system worked similarly to the one featured in Killer Instinct, which popularized the concept of pre-programmed combos, or moves resulting from a correctly entered string of button presses, that would create devastating and flashy attacks."

    This argument has been a good one, and I'm willing to accept that Street Fighter II single-handedly created and popularized the combo. Still, since the combos of MKIII more closely resemble those of KI rather than SFII, it seems sensible to compare MKIII to KI if the combos of SFII are indeed commonly understood by the masses. Anyways.. yeah.

  9. #39
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    I was going to say much the same thing.

    I must say I had far more fun with MK3 than I ever did KI, though. Am I the only one that couldn't really get into that game? MK3 dominated a summer, KI never really made an impact with me.

    I had a bit of fun with it on rental. That's it.

    And I'm not saying I was unaware of it at all, just that I never really became a fan. First X-Men ad then MK's latest dominated my playing time in the arcade/bowling alley back then.

  10. #40
    Master of Shinobi Drixxel's Avatar
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    I never really played KI much in the arcades, maybe a couple times here or there, but I spent a fair bit of time with the SNES port and I recall enjoying it quite a bit. I eagerly looked forward to Mortal Kombat III, but after the first wave of amazement from seeing the game in action at the arcade, it dawned on me that what I was playing was not the same calibur of game Mortal Kombat II was. In the grand scheme of things I've played considerably more MKIII than KI, though, mostly through Mortal Kombat Trilogy for PlayStation which I must admit is pretty awesome. So many characters...!

    There's a copy of KI Gold for sale at a nearby rental store. I was thinking of buying it two weekends ago, but ended up picking Mischief Makers instead. Killer Instinct perhaps deserves another go..

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    I was going to say much the same thing.

    I must say I had far more fun with MK3 than I ever did KI, though. Am I the only one that couldn't really get into that game? MK3 dominated a summer, KI never really made an impact with me.

    I had a bit of fun with it on rental. That's it.

    And I'm not saying I was unaware of it at all, just that I never really became a fan. First X-Men ad then MK's latest dominated my playing time in the arcade/bowling alley back then.
    I had fun w/ MK3, but I found KI to be intollerable.
    Mel (aka Tritium)
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  12. #42
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    What was so bad about it?

  13. #43
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    I never really played KI much in the arcades, maybe a couple times here or there, but I spent a fair bit of time with the SNES port and I recall enjoying it quite a bit. I eagerly looked forward to Mortal Kombat III, but after the first wave of amazement from seeing the game in action at the arcade, it dawned on me that what I was playing was not the same calibur of game Mortal Kombat II was. In the grand scheme of things I've played considerably more MKIII than KI, though, mostly through Mortal Kombat Trilogy for PlayStation which I must admit is pretty awesome. So many characters...!
    I played MK Trilogy last night. The loading drives me nuts, and it almost always has. I also felt parts of it were lazy -- lack of boss fatalities, no longer being able to knock opponents off The Pit II, etc. Pathetically, it sonded about seven times better than MK3 on XBox.

    Another thing about Trilogy and UMK3 that always turned me off was the abundance of palette swap ninjas posing as individual characters -- it went overboard with UMK3 and I feel much the same way about Trilogy on that front. Also, Brutalities absolutely suck. How lame.

    In the end, I think I still prefer MK3 over either UMK3 or Trilogy. It's the one I've spent the most time with -- when UMK3 hit I hardly noticed, and was totally unimpressed with its repetition of two character types and the lacking backgrounds it brought with it. Trilogy mainly fails for me on loading times.

    How many secrets are in Trilogy? That's what made MKII and 3 so great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    There's a copy of KI Gold for sale at a nearby rental store. I was thinking of buying it two weekends ago, but ended up picking Mischief Makers instead. Killer Instinct perhaps deserves another go..
    KI Gold is okay. It was something to rent back when the N64 was new. Certainly a better game than the lousy Cruis'n port I bought.

  14. #44
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    Trilogy mainly fails for me on loading times.
    How about that N64 version?

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    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    I only played it on a Toys 'R Us kiosk back in the day. Fewer characters, less animation, crappy sound by comparison -- about all it had were boss fatalites (but only one each, and it only had two bosses instead of the PS's four) and, of course, lack of loading. I also remember it looking cleaner, but it could have just been the setup in-store.

    Overall though, I think the PS version probably owns it -- except for the load times, which truly drop it way down for me.

    Back in early 97 the PS version was the way better deal anyway. I got it for $30 a month after it came out, whereas the N64 game stayed at $60 for months. I probably could get it for a few bucks loose, but is there any reason?

    You'd probably know better than me.

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