32X: Yay or nay?

[crazyjoedavola]

I think the real issue is not whether the 32X is a good system or not, (it was killed off too early to know what developers might have done) but lack of communication and cooperation between SOJ and SOA. With the huge success of the Genesis here in the states, one can't help but wonder why on earth SOJ wouldn't want to work WITH SOA to keep that huge market. I truly believe that the success of the PSX wasn't entirely due to it's somewhat better graphics capabilities, but more because of gamers frustrations with Sega.

It was clearly Sega's game to lose and they certainly dropped the ball. They made a valiant effort with Dreamcast, but it was too little too late.

Who knows though. Maybe someday we'll read in the gaming mags or on the web that Sega is planning a new console release. Sony can't stay on top forever right? Or is it Microsoft who is on top? I haven't been keeping track.

[16bitter]

I think Microsoft will soon be on top, frankly. They may never crack Japan, but they will crack the West -- especially with an early release, what looks to be a far better price, more software and, looking at past history, the safe bet that it's likely that Sony will not come up with a hardware that is nearly as great as they hype it to be.

And hey, every day it aappears that Microsoft gets better support from key Japanese devs.

As far as 32X, Sega -- of America or Japan -- and their overall plans, we agree. Sega destroyed themselves, it wasn't Sony.

[Mel]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

Microsoft, may or may not dominate the market that is yet to be seen. They haven't done much to piss off consumers. We'll see where this goes.

[j_factor]

There were like 3 or 4 different prototypes for the next gen system. Mars(32x), Neptune (32x & genesis hybrid), Saturn, Jupiter.

There was more than that even. There was an early prototype called the Giga Drive, and another prototype called the Titan (not to be confused with the arcade board).

[crazyjoedavola]

I honestly feel bad for Sega. Even though I grew up with Atari and Nintendo, I really felt like I "came of age" with Sege in regards to video games. The Sega Genesis was almost like a religious experience for me because it showed me what video games could be. I really hoped that Sega would continue to be at the forefront of gaming , like they were with the Genesis, but I guess it wasn't to be. I'm still very partial to Sega and it's systems and suppose I will be for a long time to come.

I remember when the SNES gained in popularity, I argued that that system was far superior to the Genesis and, at the time, I really believed it. In fact, it was my favorite 16 bit system. But for some reason I can't explain, when I decided to get back into gaming after a long absence, I immediately chose to get a Sega Genesis. Why? Who knows. I do love it though.

[16bitter]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA. There really was no contest. But there could have been -- with a better ad campaign, a smart release date, proper pricing and enough 3rd party software. Sega abandoned all of this, while the PS capitalized not only on Sega's stupidity but also on a damn strong launch.

Sega just kind of stumbled in the room drunk and ugly expecting people to run out and buy their latest for god knows what reason. Nice.

Microsoft, may or may not dominate the market that is yet to be seen. They haven't done much to piss off consumers. We'll see where this goes.

My mind is quickly changing. Check out their announcements today. Fractured market and a price point that, despite what so many argue, may be too high. What's the advantage over Sony now? Microsoft is not going to have the third party support that Sony enjoys, nor is their price point now likely to be much better -- unless Sony is insane and thinks that Trip Hawkins' dream can now become reality at $500-700. Yeah right.

Sony keeps winning because their competition is moronic. While I think the PS launch was awesome it also had a nearly open market because of Sega's constant blundering, and the PS2 launch survived on hype and lack of competition. Now it appears that for a third straight gen we'll get the same -- the competition killing themselves without Sony playing a direct hand at all on that front, other than taking advantage of such stupidity.

Microsoft is doing the inverse of what Sony did with the first PS. While Sony came in under the expected price point, Microsoft is truly coming in over what people expected. And their pricing on accessories for their console is outrageous -- you'd think they were the market leaders with this arrogance. I don't see any evidence of them trying to actively please the gaming market overall, but instead we're just supposed to lap up what they offer.

[Vicman]

Don't even get me started 16bitter! I was hoping that we'd see a grand system war, similar to the 16-bit war, where in the end it was the gamers that ended up winning. Instead we're being fed fractured SKUs lacking the components made standard in this current gen and overpriced accessories to make the higher priced model seem like a deal. ARG! I am soooo tired of console makers making the same friggen mistakes over and over and over and over again! It's the same crap every gen!

DON'T THEY EVER LEARN! :evil:

P.S. now my sig has another implication, MS is killing off the progress they made with the Xbox via their pricing/launch structure of the Xbox 360.

[Chikinware]

I have to say that software matters the most to me. Therefore I think that the 32x should have been made for Knuckles Chaotix.

[Psy]

I have to say that software matters the most to me. Therefore I think that the 32x should have been made for Knuckles Chaotix.

Knuckles Chaotix could have been made into a Saturn launch title. Not like the game needed the 32x and it wasn't that long before the Saturn hit stores.

As for the 32x, I think it divided the Genesis userbase and Sega's resources/attention too much. I think they should have focused on the stock Genesis and Sega CD, I remeber at the downtown record store were I use to get games they pushed the CDx instead of the 32x due to the existing Sega CD library. I also notice the shelf space for Sega CD really grew with the releace of the CDx so it would have been possible for Sega to renew intrest in Sega CD if they didn't release the 32x.

[j_factor]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug! and Astal were pretty wow at the time. Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

[ary incorparated]

Al after Al sega just had some stupid competitions aggainst eachoter it just didnt went that good as everybody tought,Sega wasnt the one big happy development team its was just as usual the Amerika vs Japan and that whit sega.Sega Dicked the sega gamer with their own problems by arguing instead of developing.

[16bitter]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug!

VF2 was a winner, but Bug! looked like shit BEFORE the PS1 hit, and the graphics on Dragoon were mediocre.

Compare the Saturn's 95 US lineup to the Playstation's Ridge Racer, Toshinden (stunning when it debuted), WipEout, Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jumping Flash!, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Mortal Kombat 3, Doom (a beautiful port with music and sound effects that were superior to the originals on PC), NFL Gameday, NHL Faceoff, Air Combat, WWF Wrestlemania the Arcade Game -- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

I don't recall much that impressed me enough to think that the Saturn was worth $400 -- or as much as PS for that matter -- in the first year, and never did its overall domestic software impress me as much as the PS's. Too much was left in Japan (especially the 2D software which played to the system's true strengths), came out/ported too late (getting shittier looking versions of PS games from six months prior wasn't going to blow anybody away) or didn't have the visual polish needed to impress.

Playstation was generally better looking and far better covered in most any genre you could name. And strictly comparing them out of the gate, there was no question as to which was hot and why. If Sega had managed to outsell the PS I'd call that masterful PR, but the Playstation had both the software to impress and the marketing muscle to get the word out -- one did not stand head and shoulders above the other.

[j_factor]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug!

VF2 was a winner, but Bug! looked like shit BEFORE the PS1 hit, and the graphics on Dragoon were mediocre.

I don't think PD's graphics were mediocre at all -- at the time it was impressive.

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

Compare the Saturn's 95 US lineup to the Playstation's Ridge Racer, Toshinden (stunning when it debuted), WipEout, Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jumping Flash!, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Mortal Kombat 3, Doom (a beautiful port with music and sound effects that were superior to the originals on PC), NFL Gameday, NHL Faceoff, Air Combat, WWF Wrestlemania the Arcade Game -- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.Also, you're the first person I've ever heard from that was impressed by Mortal Kombat 3.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports. This should be even more apparent today -- nobody plays Ridge Racer 1 anymore, but Sega Rally still has its fans.

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football, but Saturn had the other sports just fine. NHL All-Star Hockey, Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?), World Series Baseball, etc.

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games. I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me. I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore? I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

I don't recall much that impressed me enough to think that the Saturn was worth $400 -- or as much as PS for that matter -- in the first year, [/quote]

It was $300 by that Christmas. I definitely agree that the $400 launch was a huge mistake, but that's little to do with what I was arguing -- which is that Saturn had the quality software that Playstation didn't. I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3. And the immediate outlook for '96 looked way better for Saturn too.

[16bitter]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug!

VF2 was a winner, but Bug! looked like shit BEFORE the PS1 hit, and the graphics on Dragoon were mediocre.

I don't think PD's graphics were mediocre at all -- at the time it was impressive.

I remember playing it at Toys 'R Us quite a few times. Cool game? Yes. Amazing looking? No.

If you think that was an impressive graphical showcase, it's rather amazing how easily you dismiss all the examples the PS had in this area.

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Compare the Saturn's 95 US lineup to the Playstation's Ridge Racer, Toshinden (stunning when it debuted), WipEout, Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jumping Flash!, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Mortal Kombat 3, Doom (a beautiful port with music and sound effects that were superior to the originals on PC), NFL Gameday, NHL Faceoff, Air Combat, WWF Wrestlemania the Arcade Game -- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue.

Also, you're the first person I've ever heard from that was impressed by Mortal Kombat 3.

We talking about the game in general or the port? It was the big arcade game of 95 and it was exclusively on PS. I don't see how that's a bad thing for PS, nor a good thing for Saturn.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

The Playstation? Games that were pretty damned close to arcade perfect, and hotter titles in the US arcade market at that. You have Ridge Racer sitting next to Daytona for months, what do you think the impression will be? What should it be?

Bottom line is that the Playstation made people think it was very powerful indeed, and the place for accurate arcade ports -- back then an important issue.

This should be even more apparent today -- nobody plays Ridge Racer 1 anymore, but Sega Rally still has its fans.

We're talking about the perspective in 1995, not how games acquit themselves 10 years on.

But, since you bring it up, how many people would play Daytona over RR? The early Saturn arcade ports have only gotten far worse with age -- which is quite the feat considering how fugly they were to begin with.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football,

Believe it or not, football is far and away what matters most in the market. It is the market for all intents and purposes.

but Saturn had the other sports just fine.
NHL All-Star Hockey,

I'm vague, but I'm pretty sure that this was roundly panned. Faceoff on the other hand looked nice and picked up positive reviews.

Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?),

Who cares? This is America -- five people give a crap about soccer here.

It's hilarious that you don't think it a big deal to be without the BIG American sport on Saturn, but are critical of the lack of soccer on the PS. How much more biased can you be?

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war.

To act as if the Playstation was lacking in quality games next to the Saturn is a pretty bad joke. Would I want to play Toshinden today? No. But I never wanted to play some of the so-called killer apps that the Saturn had languishing on store shelves for months and monnths, let alone pay for them.

I paid a buck a pop for Daytona and Virtua Fighter. Only as mere curiosity and humor some years on. I'd have been crying if I'd paid hundreds of dollars for that crap.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice. Prove that it has the power to be worth its price tag. Sadly the Saturn took far too long to show this at all, and never did so consistently enough in this market.

If it was only about gameplay then nobody would have bought a next gen system that year -- 16 bit still had the better lineup overall.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then?

I play many more Snes and Genny games today than I do anything from Saturn or PS's first year. That doesn't change the fact that I had a hell of a great time with the Playstation back then.

I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Maybe it has something to do with showing up late for the party?

If you didn't see any quality in games like Jumping Flash!, Warhawk, Twisted Metal, WipEout, Ridge Racer and the like there isn't much I can do to change your mind at this late date. Did games generally get better? Yes, but that's always the case with great systems.

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

I don't recall much that impressed me enough to think that the Saturn was worth $400 -- or as much as PS for that matter -- in the first year,

It was $300 by that Christmas. I definitely agree that the $400 launch was a huge mistake, but that's little to do with what I was arguing -- which is that Saturn had the quality software that Playstation didn't.

It's telling that you bought it then -- when the Saturn finally got an influx of some quality titles -- as opposed to earlier in the year when Sega truly decided their own fate. The PS was impressive out of the gate and never let up -- given the choice again I'd still buy a PS. No doubt in my mind.

The Saturn only started to turn itself around at the end of the year with a trickle of awesome titles from Sega themselves. Far too little and far too late.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?

I was just looking through GF -- the biggest group of Sega fanboys in print at the time -- and even their coverage skews heavily towards positive PS hype. Why? Because it clearly had a better year.

Ten years on and both systems look awful graphically to the point where I don't enjoy playing many great games on them -- and this was arguably the Saturn's problem at the time.

And the immediate outlook for '96 looked way better for Saturn too.

Resident Evil alone looked better than anything the Saturn had to offer in early 96.

[David J.]

I liked the Saturn the best because it was a Sega console! I was eight years old, what do you expect
That said, I also thought the PSX launch lineup was more impressive that the Saturn's first few games.

The PSX didn't get a good Soccer game for a while. Worldwide Soccer, well, the first one is shit. I never played '97 or '98. Too bad the Saturn didn't have a good Football game outside of crappy ports of Madden.