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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2311
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    This is very simple for me, DC can't handle a game whose base is ps2. DC lived together with ps2 for about 2 years, and all games between them are based on DC, the only one based on PS2 is UT and the difference is visible, stages are missing, another game is Half Life, The DC version is incomplete, i know, but I don't think it would look better, maybe the loadings times, and the difference is too big.
    Did you forget all the sudden unreal Tournament was ported by it's creators to ps2 and a third party to the Dreamcast? Hardly the same treatment. Also half life runs on Windows ce whose performance isn't as good as segas sdk. Your seriously looking at the wrong things.

    The reverse is true. When a game is multiplat at the same time with the DC it helps push the DC more. Look at dead or alive 2. The most of the ps2 content was back ported to the Dreamcast with the limited edition with the exception of a few stages. The unreleased soul reaver 2 also mentioned the ps2 was the lead but in order to keep up they had to push the Dreamcast very hard. They were suprised it could keep up despite that the ps2 still had more room for performance. They shared the same graphics up until it got cancelled for the DC. the trailer in the bottom was the long version of the first trailer released claiming that while it was running on the ps2 the DC version was 100% the same directly from their mouths. You give the DC too little credit.



    Edit: from what I understand once it was cancelled the graphics we're further enhanced for ps2. So the final game has a different look from that trailer
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 10-17-2019 at 10:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Did you forget all the sudden unreal Tournament was ported by it's creators to ps2 and a third party to the Dreamcast? Hardly the same treatment.
    I have made that point
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    This is very simple for me, DC can't handle a game whose base is ps2. DC lived together with ps2 for about 2 years, and all games between them are based on DC, the only one based on PS2 is UT and the difference is visible, stages are missing, another game is Half Life, The DC version is incomplete, i know, but I don't think it would look better, maybe the loadings times, and the difference is too big.
    Like I said before you should be a Politician. Many systems can have issues when a game is developed around once pice of hardware and then tried to be ported to another: How many PS3 games had issues when the 360 was the lead platform?

    Also, you look to bring up some poor examples why bring up an unfinished game or look to compare a game where the original developer and engine creator worked on the PS2 version. Sure when it came to memory and polygons the PS2 killed the DC, but I always disked like how the low res and blurry display for PS2 games.I look at Quake 3 on both systems and to me, the DC version is the better, it looks better (ok doesn't run better) and also had full Online support and I would say that id Tech 3 was a far more advanced engine that id Tech2 that was powering Half-Life. They are many factors at play mind what team is handling the port and how much resources they are given and when you're the market leader you tend to get the most
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  4. #2314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Did you forget all the sudden unreal Tournament was ported by it's creators to ps2 and a third party to the Dreamcast? Hardly the same treatment. Also half life runs on Windows ce whose performance isn't as good as segas sdk. Your seriously looking at the wrong things.
    the arguments you use are valid, but we need to be as scientific as possible, the evidence from the ports says that ps2 can double the frame rate over DC, improve light effects, add more bots, and this is compatible with hardware differences between platforms.Most of the games seen on both were designed with Dreamcast in mind. DC-PS2,

    So if in DC games PS2 gets improvements, the question comes to mind: What would PS2 games look like when running on Dreamcast?

    I didn't choose maliciously these 3 games (UT, Half Life, Track and Field) is because I don't know other games based on PS2, in ports PS2-DC.

    Let's take a look, Track and Field needed to be re-imagined on DC version and it was cool. Suggest, a direct port from the PS2 version would probably be worse than the DC version we see. VF4 is a very nice game on ps2, but it is a port coming from a more powerful machine, so Tekken 5 gets better results because it was made with PS2 limitations in mind since the beginning of the project.
    UT; face off analysis was posted on the previous pages, the most important point is that in the broad stages the frame rate dropped to 12fps and other broad stages weren't even included, that means there was a relationship between ram and frame rate.
    Half Life We all know it's an unfinished game and IMO is one of the most beautiful games on Dreamcast
    I don't think it could get much better if it was done by devs, because as I said there are hardware differences between consoles and these games partially respect these differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    The reverse is true. When a game is multiplat at the same time with the DC it helps push the DC more. Look at dead or alive 2. The most of the ps2 content was back ported to the Dreamcast with the limited edition with the exception of a few stages.
    This isn't true, DOA 2 is a Naomi / DC game, PS2 Hardcore version has new 8 stages and not a few stages. Limited Edition has only two new stages compared to the standard version of DC and they aren't the same as the PS2 version. The other extra content is very similar although they are present in smaller quantities, finally the PS2 version runs cutscenes at 60fps and DC at 30fps, double PPS in this situation. but the DC version has better textures, AA and resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    The unreleased soul reaver 2 also mentioned the ps2 was the lead but in order to keep up they had to push the Dreamcast very hard. They were suprised it could keep up despite that the ps2 still had more room for performance. They shared the same graphics up until it got cancelled for the DC. the trailer in the bottom was the long version of the first trailer released claiming that while it was running on the ps2 the DC version was 100% the same directly from their mouths, from what I understand once it was cancelled the graphics we're further enhanced for ps2. So the final game has a different look from that trailer
    In one magazine I had, the devs gave an interview justifying the cancellation, they rated the Memory Ram as issue. saying DC couldn't handle the broad stages of Soul Reaver 2 it may have been just a PR, so they canceled and converted SR2 into a PS2 game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the arguments you use are valid, but we need to be as scientific as possible, the evidence from the ports says that ps2 can double the frame rate over DC, improve light effects, add more bots, and this is compatible with hardware differences between platforms.Most of the games seen on both were designed with Dreamcast in mind. DC-PS2,

    So if in DC games PS2 gets improvements, the question comes to mind: What would PS2 games look like when running on Dreamcast?

    I didn't choose maliciously these 3 games (UT, Half Life, Track and Field) is because I don't know other games based on PS2, in ports PS2-DC.

    Let's take a look, Track and Field needed to be re-imagined on DC version and it was cool. Suggest, a direct port from the PS2 version would probably be worse than the DC version we see. VF4 is a very nice game on ps2, but it is a port coming from a more powerful machine, so Tekken 5 gets better results because it was made with PS2 limitations in mind since the beginning of the project.
    UT; face off analysis was posted on the previous pages, the most important point is that in the broad stages the frame rate dropped to 12fps and other broad stages weren't even included, that means there was a relationship between ram and frame rate.
    Half Life We all know it's an unfinished game and IMO is one of the most beautiful games on Dreamcast
    I don't think it could get much better if it was done by devs, because as I said there are hardware differences between consoles and these games partially respect these differences.



    This isn't true, DOA 2 is a Naomi / DC game, PS2 Hardcore version has new 8 stages and not a few stages. Limited Edition has only two new stages compared to the standard version of DC and they aren't the same as the PS2 version. The other extra content is very similar although they are present in smaller quantities, finally the PS2 version runs cutscenes at 60fps and DC at 30fps, double PPS in this situation. but the DC version has better textures, AA and resolution.



    In one magazine I had, the devs gave an interview justifying the cancellation, they rated the Memory Ram as issue. saying DC couldn't handle the broad stages of Soul Reaver 2 it may have been just a PR, so they canceled and converted SR2 into a PS2 game.
    So.. you're simply going to ignore that they chose to use the more memory hungry and seriously under performing sdk to port half life to the Dreamcast? That's a bias and you know it.

    You don't need to re- imagine track and field or vf4 , it's been demonstrated in this very topic that the Dreamcast can safely handle up to 80k tris per frame at 30 fps. Track and field would run 100% identical to it's ps2 counterpart and vf4 nearly. What matters more would have been what's for crucial intact graphics or frame rate because if it's frame rate THEN those games would need to be reworked graphically. Halfing the frame rate isn't going to magically destroy the game.

    Your down playing the changes in the limited edition, the extra break zones that were added to existing stages on the ps2 were added to the Dreamcast( aka there's even more stuff in memory now). Heck the DC le even got the kasumi model that had a much higher polygon count as default costume. The cut scenes run with the same model as the game play what changes appears to be the lighting if you look carefully. They must not be able to keep up same polygon count with more lights.

    For soul reaver 2 what your point? I got an archive snapshot of devs website where they mentioned the DC version and how they worked very hard to keep it par the Dreamcast version. Only to have eidos shut it down in a financial decision. I think I'll take their words over the magazine. Whether you like it or not it ran on par with the ps2 and proved that multi platting with the ps2 as lead actually helps push the DC more.

    Edit: here's directly from the porting companys mouth. Happy? Just click on soul reaver 2 DC. It was eidos financial decisions and then judging by what you said they decided to lie about it to make the ps2 version seem vastly superior.

    http://web.archive.org/web/201001270..._projects.html

    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; Yesterday at 09:54 AM.

  6. #2316
    Master of Shinobi Zz Badnusty's Avatar
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    Pardon me for asking, what is the point of this thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Let's take a look, Track and Field needed to be re-imagined on DC version and it was cool.
    Yeah lets ... and when Konami Japan was working on a title you knew it had the full weight of Konami behind it, when it was handed out to other Konami studios one knew it wasn't
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  8. #2318
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty View Post
    Pardon me for asking, what is the point of this thread?
    There isn't one. Like all these comparison threads and what if SEGA made consoles again. It's 100% pointless but fun.



    Life!? ... What console is that on?

  9. #2319
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    There isn't one. Like all these comparison threads and what if SEGA made consoles again. It's 100% pointless but fun.
    I don't completely agree. The Sega making consoles again threads are pointless but we're actually making progress in this thread. Debunking myths about the Dreamcast and PS2 and documenting polycounts. Stuff like people saying Jak II runs at 15 million PPS, even though its creator said the PS2 is capable of 9 million PPS. Or the very famous Test Drive Le Mans 5 million PPS. Theres also cool facts like no one probably ever knew Test Drive Le Mans runs at the same polycounts as R:Racing Evolution.



    I do want to make my long 20 minute posts in this thread, but I gotta feel optimal to do it. Keep getting sick and crappy sleep.
    Last edited by Yharnamresident; Today at 03:29 AM. Reason: Unnecessary qoute
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    Decided to take another shot at Fighting Vipers 2 which happens to be my favorite game on the dc. The game in general run somewhere between sub-1 million polygons per second to about 1.1 mpps during actual gameplay. Its a model 3 game with its polygon count cut in half when ported. Using the special code(hold up during the load screen before the stage appears) lets the camera zoom out to show the entire stage.Thats about the only way to capture meaningful polygon count. The marble arena being the only stage withlots of polygons almost topping out at 2mpps @ 60 fps. I suspect the model 3 version if you were to convert the quad count to triangles it probably runs around 30,000- 60,000 triangles per frame just eyeing them side by side(it has way more detail on characters and stages,impressive for a 1997 machine). Am2 could have done way better...

    This seems about the usual polygon count of most of the stages when using the prefight zoom out code:
    21,375 tris per frame x 60 fps = 1.28 mpps



    Marble arena I think its called. The highest polygon count stage in the game, it can top out at close to 2million tris per second but I missed my timing capturing that:
    29,484 tris per frame x 60 fps = 1.7 mpps

    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; Today at 03:15 AM.

  11. #2321
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Really? Like no one would be surprised when I say my favourite Dreamcast game is Ikaruga, but Fighting Vipers 2? I suppose you just really like the content of the game and recognize its not the best port.

    Cloofoofoo I actually took some captures of the game a couple months ago, you can see them if they're of any use to you:




    1.05 million PPS




    950,000 PPS




    1.1 million PPS




    1.2 million PPS
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  12. #2322
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    Code Veroncia was for the best game on the Dreamcast
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