Quantcast

Page 122 of 136 FirstFirst ... 2272112118119120121122123124125126132 ... LastLast
Results 1,816 to 1,830 of 2027

Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #1816
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    4,957
    Rep Power
    54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I mean just general lighting and shadows from the sun. Light sourcing is like a campfire lighting up every object around it. Lots of Dreamcast games have crappy lighting because it had to be packed onto the CPU, and developers wanted to use the CPU for other stuff.
    Yeah, I think only Yu Suzuki and AM#2 made a real effort, I did like the lighting in D2 mind;That game also looked and sounded incredible
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  2. #1817
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    69
    Rep Power
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    R:Racing Evolution (2003, PS2)

    Average: 2.5 million polygons per second

    could you measure the polygonal count RE4 in Separate Ways Ada in forest and village.
    main game Leon Chicago costume first, in exactly the same place normal Leon, other games: Ghost Hunter, Hitman Blood money crows mission, Harry potter order phoenix, Black, Area 51, Crash Twinsanity, True Crimes NYC, soul calibur 2 and Def Jam FFNY.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-23-2019 at 01:58 PM.

  3. #1818
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,390
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Yeah, I think only Yu Suzuki and AM#2 made a real effort, I did like the lighting in D2 mind;That game also looked and sounded incredible
    I'm planning to look at D2 with my next batch of Dreamcast games, which also includes a popular game I've been intentionally avoiding, Sonic Adventure 2. The reason I've been avoiding this game, is its a long game that will take a couple days to document, so I have to be ready.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    could you measure the polygonal count RE4 in Separate Ways Ada in forest and village.
    main game Leon Chicago costume first, in exactly the same place normal Leon, other games: Ghost Hunter, Hitman Blood money crows mission, Harry potter order phoenix, Black, Area 51, Crash Twinsanity, True Crimes NYC, soul calibur 2 and Def Jam FFNY.
    It will have to be during the winter. I've been documenting mainly Dreamcast games for the last few months and I'm burned out.

    I'll have to get a newer PS2 emulator with much higher game compatibility. I also wanna look at V-Rally 3 and the Burnout games, V-Rally 3 looks like it could've been on Dreamcast.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  4. #1819
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,390
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Ridge Racer (1995, PS1)

    Average: 66,000 polygons per second


    Yes thats right, I can even document PS1 games. I found a DirectX 6 plugin that works perfect. The reason I'm posting this, is so we can get an idea of what 5th-gen games were running at. This was a launch title, and graphically it looks good for an early PS1 game.




    1 car on screen with lots of roadside detail. 69,000 PPS




    3 cars on screen. 69,000 PPS




    4 cars on screen in tunnel. 63,000 PPS




    5 cars on screen. 64,000 PPS
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  5. #1820
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    69
    Rep Power
    1

    Default

    not to be totally left out, I took a look at the last few pages and saw some misconceptions, for example, the idea that DC has more MB of VRAM and thus could improve textures in ps2 games and also the idea that it could run a ps2 game as long as it was within Dreamcast's polygonal count limits.

    Take for example RE4: PS2 version the game runs at about 23/34 polygons per scene at 30 frames which between 600 and 1kk polygons, uses 4 bit textures, what's the idea? that Dreamcast could do better and that is not true, for DC to be able to improve textures and make use of the same polygonal count first of all it should be able to run the game firstly, and this is not possible because Dreamcast has no power enough cpu and ram to make the scenarios and scope of the game, can't handle characters in action games over 3k polygons and others limitations.

  6. #1821
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,390
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    not to be totally left out, I took a look at the last few pages and saw some misconceptions, for example, the idea that DC has more MB of VRAM and thus could improve textures in ps2 games and also the idea that it could run a ps2 game as long as it was within Dreamcast's polygonal count limits.
    Dreamcast games almost always have better textures than PS2 games, and its due to a hardware advantage. Also its more about the texture compression is more elegant and easy to use, than the MBs of VRAM.

    We're being realistic about the Dreamcast be able to run PS2 games that have suitable polycounts. Like San Andreas is likely within the Dreamcast polygon limits, but its not possible on Dreamcast because of disc space and the Dreamcast being able to stream the world fast enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Take for example RE4: PS2 version the game runs at about 23/34 polygons per scene at 30 frames which between 600 and 1kk polygons, uses 4 bit textures, what's the idea? that Dreamcast could do better and that is not true, for DC to be able to improve textures and make use of the same polygonal count first of all it should be able to run the game firstly, and this is not possible because Dreamcast has no power enough cpu and ram to make the scenarios and scope of the game, can't handle characters in action games over 3k polygons and others limitations.
    I've heard the reason that game has low performance on PS2 is because the game uses tons of post-processing effects that had to be done in software, where as with the GameCube version, the GameCube could do those effects with its GPU. So right there we know the Dreamcast would handle those effects even worse than the PS2 would, and make the game too gimped.

    Also I've never heard the Dreamcast can't handle characters over 3k polygons. Personally I would never consider RE4 possible on Dreamcast, because of its time of release(early 2005). Late 6th-gen games would usually not be possible on Dreamcast, except stuff like Triggerheart Excelica. I'm mainly looking at games from early 6th-gen(which are mostly Dreamcast games anyway), and mid 6th-gen.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  7. #1822
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,390
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Soul Calibur (1999, DC)

    Average: 1.5 million polygons per second


    Here it is, the highest rated Dreamcast game, and one of the first 10 games ever made to receive a 10/10 from IGN. This game was and still is known as a masterpiece, and on top of that it has good performance. But in all honesty I got no interest in fighting games and would've preferred if Namco created a Dreamcast Ridge Racer instead of this game.





    1.5 million PPS




    1.5 million PPS




    1.5 million PPS




    1.4 million PPS

    Yes this game is very static 1.4-1.5 million PPS
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  8. #1823
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    69
    Rep Power
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Dreamcast games almost always have better textures than PS2 games, and its due to a hardware advantage. Also its more about the texture compression is more elegant and easy to use, than the MBs of VRAM.
    there are two errors in this logic i'll start with ps2 having worse textures than dreamcast, yes that is almost true., but only for DC games ported to ps2 or early simples ps2 games.

    the things are not that simple, in fact dreamcast can store textures in full size while ps2 needs to do partition 8 bits and then rebuild texture; so in Unreal T (game ps2 based) although both versions have the same textures (128x128) the dreamcast version looks like better in this department because they don't lose quality at a distance. up close is almost nil.

    if we use the unreleased Half Life we ​​see that at some points it keeps better textures at a distance but ps2 operates at 24 bit textures while the dreamcast 16 bit at low res than ps2 textures, okay the game has not been officially released what we have is a beta , so it operates at 14fps during gunplay and has over 20 seconds of mid-phase loading, while ps2 does 4 seconds and operates, always above 30fps at gunplay.

    Going back to Unreal T the Dreamcast version has flat lighting on stages, no reflections and dynamic light effects, poor filtering on textures (interesting texture son ps2 lose quality at distance but is more filtered) no water animation, no wider stages (this is serious gimped) despite frame rate free, there are drops to under 30fps, while ps2 Operates at stable 30fps; All this in an early game, how would a DeusX run on Dreamcast? if even ps2 has problems with ram memory (which is 2x more than DC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    We're being realistic about the Dreamcast be able to run PS2 games that have suitable polycounts. Like San Andreas is likely within the Dreamcast polygon limits, but its not possible on Dreamcast because of disc space and the Dreamcast being able to stream the world fast enough.

    .
    you don't realize that gta sa is not just polygons count, it has all the applied physics that require a stronger processor, open world requires more memory, variety of textures (not quality) that requires more bandwidth, space on disk in this case is not even the limiter. DC version would loading each 20 seconds every 3 yards.
    As a game becomes complex, it tends to reduce polygonal counts, Xbox games like Halo, Riddick, and Doom don't have many polygons, and Dreamcast couldn't run them.

    In short this idea of ​​polygonal counting does not take into consideration things like physics, lighting, map complexity and this goes for any sixth generation game based. I'm not talking about Viewtiful Joe, Kof 11... a simple Spyro Enter The Dragonfly (2002) it would be complicated, Spyro character is a 5k polygons model.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-24-2019 at 01:26 AM.

  9. #1824
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,390
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    I just looked at your posts in another thread:

    http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...graphics/page7

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    There is a lot of information about gamecube that is not true one of them was that it was a more capable machine. Let me see where I start, GCN unlike Dreamcast does not run all games in 480p , the main GCN games that use good graphics have much lower internal resolutions than that.

    Star wars RS2: 640x450, 640x304
    Star wars RS3: 512x450, 512x304
    Metroid Prime2 640x448
    Resident Evil Remake: 640x448 512x448
    RE4: 640x448 512x448 LetterBoxed visible area 640x278 512x278
    Metal Gear Twin snake 512x448
    Dragon Ball Budokai 2 512x240

    GCN has a strong limitation due to the Mini DVD making it impossible to play games like GTA SA, Champions of Norrath and other space-intensive or disc-swapping games. From a logical point of view, there is no way to make a GTA-like game where it is possible to change the disk, in shenmue was possible but in gta or the game fits on the disc or there is no way,
    and when these games are released the machine suffers (you can compare) there is no open world game better on GCN than on PS2 graphically. (true crimes, Need Most wanted, Dead to rights) words of Driver 3 dev:

    according to my research there are only 11 multiplatform games in which GameCube shows substantial graphic differences compared to PS2. But there are 40 multiplatform games that show substantial advantages in favor of ps2. For substantial graphic difference I include lack of shadow, textures, effects and frame rate, the other differences like AA vs no AA or 480i vs 480p I did not consider for this comparison

    gamecube doesn't have better textures than ps2 in the vast majority of games, in general gcn has blurry textures, but it's not an isolated texture here or there, it's the whole picture, we see it more easily in games like 007 Russia with Love, Medal of Honor, King Kong ...
    Theres no point in having a console capability discussion with someone if its not unbiased
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  10. #1825
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    4,957
    Rep Power
    54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Ridge Racer (1995, PS1)

    Average: 66,000 polygons per second


    Yes thats right, I can even document PS1 games. I found a DirectX 6 plugin that works perfect.
    Can you do the same for Saturn? I like to know how many Polygons Sega Rally, Virtual Cop, Dark Savour is throwing around the screen

    I'm planning to look at D2 with my next batch of Dreamcast games
    Its a stunning look game, that never gets the credit it should (for the gfx and sound) WARP captured the sense of the wildness and snow landscape perfectly. One almost felt cold playing it at times. Like to know how many Polygons Dead Or Alive 2 throws handles too
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  11. #1826
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    4,957
    Rep Power
    54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Xbox games like Halo, Riddick, and Doom don't have many polygons, and Dreamcast couldn't run them.
    Same could be said for PS2. I'm sure the Riddick team tried to port it to the PS 2 but gave up, much like with the planned Oddworld Stranger PS2 port and I would say Halo 2 is pushing a lot of polygons with advanced physics and real-time deformation on the vehicles; Most games build from the ground up around hardware will lose something in a port, The Xbox was a beast, but its ports of Silent Hill 2 and more so MGS II were inferior. Then, there's also the issue with ports, of what Team is handling the port and what resources they are given, compared to the source material

    The DC couldn't do most PS2 games when it came to polygon counts and lack RAM. But most PS2 games didn't look great, due to the low res and not the best textures on display, kind of like N64 issues.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  12. #1827
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    69
    Rep Power
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I just looked at your posts in another thread:

    http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...graphics/page7



    Theres no point in having a console capability discussion with someone if its not unbiased

    I said from what I know, but I also know how to learn, explain to me more the basis for believing that the dreamcast would run later games as long as it is within the system supported polygon counts, so I gave the example of Doom, Halo and Riddick (which are low polygonal counting games) to show that there are flaws in the concept, but as I said maybe I don't know much about dreamcast hardware

    you measure the polygonal counts you may have noticed a pattern that the higher the graphic fidelity the lower the polygonal count for example 3kk seconds is usually only achieved in games like triggerheart exelica and other shooters, DOA2 (2,4kk) fighting game, simple games like floingam bros (2,5kk) maybe the highest dreamcast score for action games. the rest ( including awesome games shenmue) are in the range of 800k, 1kk and 1.8kk maybe any peak above that.

  13. #1828
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    69
    Rep Power
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Same could be said for PS2. I'm sure the Riddick team tried to port it to the PS 2 but gave up, much like with the planned Oddworld Stranger PS2 port and I would say Halo 2 is pushing a lot of polygons with advanced physics and real-time deformation on the vehicles; Most games build from the ground up around hardware will lose something in a port, The Xbox was a beast, but its ports of Silent Hill 2 and more so MGS II were inferior. Then, there's also the issue with ports, of what Team is handling the port and what resources they are given, compared to the source material

    The DC couldn't do most PS2 games when it came to polygon counts and lack RAM. But most PS2 games didn't look great, due to the low res and not the best textures on display, kind of like N64 issues.
    Did the display issues only exist until the end of 2001 or is it just my impression? I think games like jak1, MGS2, Baldur gate had very clean images.

    I also agree with you, ps2 tb could not run some xbox games, and in general a port is always lower than the original version even in case of MGS2, xbox is much stronger but still the port was below the ps2 version. Farcry, Jade empires, Ninja Gaiden, DOA3, Conker, Exclusive games generally show the true power of the console.

  14. #1829
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,390
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Can you do the same for Saturn? I like to know how many Polygons Sega Rally, Virtual Cop, Dark Savour is throwing around the screen
    I tried, the Saturn uses quads which I don't think many polygon capture softwares will recognize. But as my knowledge about this stuff improves, I may find a way. I thought Zero Gunner 2 was impossible to document, until I found out NullDC will run it as a GDI and not a CDI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Its a stunning look game, that never gets the credit it should (for the gfx and sound) WARP captured the sense of the wildness and snow landscape perfectly. One almost felt cold playing it at times. Like to know how many Polygons Dead Or Alive 2 throws handles too
    I took a brief look at Dead or Alive 2, it probably has the highest polycounts of any console fighting game released in 2000.



    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I said from what I know, but I also know how to learn, explain to me more the basis for believing that the dreamcast would run later games as long as it is within the system supported polygon counts, so I gave the example of Doom, Halo and Riddick (which are low polygonal counting games) to show that there are flaws in the concept, but as I said maybe I don't know much about dreamcast hardware

    you measure the polygonal counts you may have noticed a pattern that the higher the graphic fidelity the lower the polygonal count for example 3kk seconds is usually only achieved in games like triggerheart exelica and other shooters, DOA2 (2,4kk) fighting game, simple games like floingam bros (2,5kk) maybe the highest dreamcast score for action games. the rest ( including awesome games shenmue) are in the range of 800k, 1kk and 1.8kk maybe any peak above that.
    You are going to object to everything we say unless its in favour of the PS2, that what you also did in that "PS2 vs GameCube graphics" thread:

    important games like Beyond good and evil make 480p on ps2 and only 480i on GCN, detail ps2 still produces more particles and effects IMO is the best version too. but I don't even care much for progressive scan, for example Batman Begins is 480p on GCN and PS2 is 480i but the ps2 version has better light effects, fire, particles and shadows, I also have a theory if a game runs at 16: 9 and 480p on ps2 the cube version of the same game tends to be drastically gimped,

    It is also very rare for GCN to make better graphics in a game and ps2 not counterbalance, for example Star wars Bounty Hunter: GCN has relief and shadow detail, Ps2 version uses simple circle shadows, but offers 16: 9 compared to GCN 4: 3, slightly better lighting and drawing distance, making it, at least for me, the best version but graphicaly a draw. The widescreen in this case has overcome the shadows, 4: 3 is very old. RE4 version how i said also is true 16:9 twice view size letterbox, run with 30% and 60% more pixel count, has Chicago costume which has a closer polygonal count of the GCN 10k model, normal Leon on ps2 has 5k, Chicago Leon 6.7 or 6.2k I forgot, better cutscenes in saparate ways (I know it's pre render) than main game, more effects like rain. Anyway when running in progressive scan (IMO) is not so far as they say. But when ps2 wins the GCN version it offers nothing in return, in True Crimes 2 is a bigger monstrous difference than RE4. Something happened with ps2 pos 2002, its games got very advanced. all above RE4 technically of course Harry Potter MGS3 SH3 007 quantum solace Alone in the dark 2007, transformer character has 12k polygons, (by beyond3d devs)
    I'm not trying to bust your balls, you do seem very educated about the topics you discuss. But the level of bias is very strong, higher than even Barone
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  15. #1830
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    4,957
    Rep Power
    54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Did the display issues only exist until the end of 2001 or is it just my impression? I think games like jak1, MGS2, Baldur gate had very clean images..
    Nah longer than that , never been a fan of PS2 screen res or its textures . It wasn't just exclusives that showed off the Xbox many 3rd party ports was better on the OG Xbox for sound and GFX .

    I liked the PS 2 more for some of its insane effects, that I feel only it could pull off
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 5 users browsing this thread. (2 members and 3 guests)

  1. gamevet,
  2. Team Andromeda

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •