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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I'm not sure why you're even looking at Chaos Field. My recollection from 2004 is that game was considered totally unimpressive, even among the small core of Dreamcast weebs who were hungry for every new Japanese release from 2002 on.
    Its all about the games were released in the same year(Gradius V, Chaos Field).
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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Its all about the games were released in the same year(Gradius V, Chaos Field).
    A better comparison might be Psyvariar 2. Or, Border Down (2003) and Trizeal (2005), one year off is close enough.


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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    A better comparison might be Psyvariar 2. Or, Border Down (2003) and Trizeal (2005), one year off is close enough.
    Or shikigami no shiro 2. Not sure but that one was like 2003/2004?

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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    A better comparison might be Psyvariar 2. Or, Border Down (2003) and Trizeal (2005), one year off is close enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Or shikigami no shiro 2. Not sure but that one was like 2003/2004?
    But all those games are crappier than Chaos Field, to put it bluntly. Even an older game like Zero Gunner 2 is more impressive than all those.
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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Heres Triggerheart Excelica hitting 3.8 million PPS. I know this game does hit 4 million PPS since I see the vertice counter say "3.08 M vertices", but its super hard to capture it at the split-second it hits that:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But all those games are crappier than Chaos Field, to put it bluntly. Even an older game like Zero Gunner 2 is more impressive than all those.
    It doesn't mean you can't learn from them. I believe shikigami no shiro 2 is on ps2 Dreamcast gamecube and Wii(I think). Possibly PC not sure. You could compare many of those to spot how different systems handle the rendering. Anyway it has a better artstyle than chaos field lol. Chaos field was nothing impressive when I extracted the models from the files on disc. It was quite underwhelming.

    Also there might be different ways to tax the system. Remember disperia on the DC? Well I looked at the models of the summons and a lot of them have crazy amount of bones for animation like 100 to I think 300 bones despite the models being like 2k to 4k triangles each. That probably wasn't friendly to the Dreamcast CPU lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Heres Triggerheart Excelica hitting 3.8 million PPS. I know this game does hit 4 million PPS since I see the vertice counter say "3.08 M vertices", but its super hard to capture it at the split-second it hits that:


    I still maintain the game is a cheat, a clever one though catered to how the Dreamcast worked. The ps2 version of this game renders this game like 3k to 15k Tris per frame without any detail loss with our having to do like 40k to 60k Tris per frame like the DC version. Even hectic scenes like the one you captured is no more than 29k tris per frame. There's nothing of how the ps2 renders it, any console including the Dreamcast could have clipped the stuff outside the screen and do the backface culling.

    On the DC all the geometry is outside the screen as they don't clip anything , giving you a false high polygon count. Since the Dreamcast doesn't waste time drawing outside the screen it saves fillrate. Then no backface cull is needed because it's also automatically done on the powervr GPU. That's why I said clever trick this game is because no cpu resource is wasted on clipping.Personally I am more impressed with DOA 2 since more of its up to 40k Tris per frame is inside the frame actually rendered.

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    Here we go, if we look at trigger heart ps2 you can see textures were actually improved considerably compared to dc and radial blur was added. Look at the polygon counter, I stopped it at the same scene you captured at. Its running but a small fraction because I suspect they are probably using the co processors to clip all unseen polygons. So considering this is all that is visible the dc version has alot of unseen polygons inflating the count.

    6,676 tris per frame x 60 fps = 400k pps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    We have come to a situation where not only Dreamcast can play games from a more powerful 5x console but can even improve their quality.

    I will bring some numbers to our memory

    1.4 Gflops vs 6.2 Gflops (5x)
    GD vs DVD (4x)
    16MB main memory + 8MB video vs 32MB + 4MB video,

    100% more main memory. (2x) that's a lot more in the real world than the numbers say, twice the ram alone already says '' this game can't run on the platform with less memory '' the xbox doesn't run certain chihiro arcade games just for the sake of memory , the rest of the specs are almost the same, now imagine that in addition to ram, we still have 5x less floating point handling capabilities, 4x less disk space.

    Finally the PS2 has run many Dreamcast games are about 15 games, it is difficult to remember a game that has not been improved in lighting and frame rate, see here a exemple : https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/04...i-head-to-head
    Alright I want to ask about comparing the consoles' games like that. Actually mostly just ONE game, Ecco: Defender of the Future. (Which people did discuss a couple years ago, but I'm curious to hear newer folks' thoughts on it who probably didn't discuss it a couple yrs ago.)

    This one game (Ecco) looks completely brighter and better on Dreamcast (although a few actual gameplay aspects were improved for the PS2 re-release).

    So a couple yrs ago, people were criticizing me for using A/V cables for both consoles... which was probably the most normal set-up for both consoles (in the US). But apparently the PS2 has lame A/V cables? And that's why this one game looks so much darker and blurrier on PS2?

    So, like, everyone just accepts it that PS2 has a lame default set-up, that makes it look worse?

    Is that really how people think of it? That's my real question lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecco View Post
    Alright I want to ask about comparing the consoles' games like that. Actually mostly just ONE game, Ecco: Defender of the Future. (Which people did discuss a couple years ago, but I'm curious to hear newer folks' thoughts on it who probably didn't discuss it a couple yrs ago.)

    This one game (Ecco) looks completely brighter and better on Dreamcast (although a few actual gameplay aspects were improved for the PS2 re-release).

    So a couple yrs ago, people were criticizing me for using A/V cables for both consoles... which was probably the most normal set-up for both consoles (in the US). But apparently the PS2 has lame A/V cables? And that's why this one game looks so much darker and blurrier on PS2?

    So, like, everyone just accepts it that PS2 has a lame default set-up, that makes it look worse?

    Is that really how people think of it? That's my real question lol.
    As I posted, on paper ps2 is stronger than Dreamcast, so understand Ecco is a DC game is not a parameter to measure the power of ps2, for example (just a exemple): Ecco may be operating at 100% of Dreamcast in PS2 side may be operating at 20%. PS2 can improve DC games if developers want it, as it has done in many games, But Dreamcast can't run PS2 games without them being profoundly reimagined for the system.

    That said let's answer your question:

    I'm not from the US but I believe most people used AV cables, there's no reason to think otherwise.
    yes PS2 AV cables make the picture look bad, component cable already improves game quality even without progressive scan support like SH3

    In general no, not only did people rely on hype, they saw that there was a quality gain in ps2 games even though they were lower resolution or even despite the AV cable, it was another time sharpening was not important marketing.

    the ''blurrier'' on ps2 is because of the better quality of illumination and color, the ps2 light engine brings a darker to the scene. It is also worth remembering that ps2 uses palletized textures which slightly reduces the overall quality, in the field of resolution both operate at 480i, Dreamcast can use the cable vga to 480p. and in the frame rate field the ps2 gives the game an improvement too.

    I'd love to see a DF Retro from this game.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 12-03-2019 at 09:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    As I posted, on paper ps2 is stronger than Dreamcast, so understand Ecco is a DC game is not a parameter to measure the power of ps2, for example (just a exemple): Ecco may be operating at 100% of Dreamcast in PS2 side may be operating at 20%. PS2 can improve DC games if developers want it, as it has done in many games, But Dreamcast can't run PS2 games without them being profoundly reimagined for the system.

    That said let's answer your question:

    I'm not from the US but I believe most people used AV cables, there's no reason to think otherwise.
    yes PS2 AV cables make the picture look bad, component cable already improves game quality even without progressive scan support like SH3

    In general no, not only did people rely on hype, they saw that there was a quality gain in ps2 games even though they were lower resolution or even despite the AV cable, it was another time sharpening was not important marketing.

    the ''blurrier'' on ps2 is because of the better quality of illumination and color, the ps2 light engine brings a darker to the scene. It is also worth remembering that ps2 uses palletized textures which slightly reduces the overall quality, in the field of resolution both operate at 480i, Dreamcast can use the cable vga to 480p. and in the frame rate field the ps2 gives the game an improvement too.

    I'd love to see a DF Retro from this game.
    It's not clear and cut and one way like you claim. Ps2 can indeed improve DC games but it also has deficiency in image quality. It was built to redraw the screen multiple times and have good physics and lighting. But it still suffers from small texture cache and lack of in hardware features. You can spin anyway you want but those things hurt it the most. It wasn't all hype but you have to admit part of it was, it out hyped superior hardware like GameCube and Xbox to the point people might claim is superior to those.

    On the ecco front not surprised. A bunch of multi texturing a transparent stuff is ps2 bread and butter. It was clearly going to outpace the DC on that game. Doa 2 illustrates their difference more accurately without being lopsided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    It's not clear and cut and one way like you claim. Ps2 can indeed improve DC games but it also has deficiency in image quality. It was built to redraw the screen multiple times and have good physics and lighting. But it still suffers from small texture cache and lack of in hardware features. You can spin anyway you want but those things hurt it the most. It wasn't all hype but you have to admit part of it was, it out hyped superior hardware like GameCube and Xbox to the point people might claim is superior to those.

    On the ecco front not surprised. A bunch of multi texturing a transparent stuff is ps2 bread and butter. It was clearly going to outpace the DC on that game. Doa 2 illustrates their difference more accurately without being lopsided.
    I'm sorry for the delay in replying, in my next post I will respond to your previous quote.
    ok, you agree with me that ps2 can improve Dreamcast games.
    about poor image quality and texture I disagree with you, but I don't disagree just for disagreeing we already discussed it, I said the PS2 can make crisp games but most of the time that wasn't the focus of the developers, I believed by Sony's order, among the good IQ PS2 games is Champions of Norrath, Jak 2, Tekken Tag.

    I think the fairest way to compare PS2 with Dreamcast is by using games that have PC, ps2 and DC versions, the console that best matches the PC in textures and IQ wins. DOA2 favors Dreamcast because the ps2 version is an early game.
    And why do I say that? for the base will be neither console nor another, it will be a more powerful machine. For when a game is from DC, the PS2 user may claim that the power of the PS2 was not used and if the game is from PS2 the DC user may claim that the port was poorly made.


    i'm not a ps2 fan, i'm very angry how hype on it was so big that it got to the point of dreamcast basically not selling a single unit in japan, sony lied and people would go to stores in japan to return dreamcast and exchange for ps1 games or wait to buy ps2, I call this strategy "freeze" because it's a dispute between a product that exists on the market against a ''ghost'', so people end up waiting and it causes many losses to the market competitor, Saturn suffered because of this, as Nintendo did marketing asking people to wait for the best..then N64 came out and what we saw was a big-blur using cartridges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I'm sorry for the delay in replying, in my next post I will respond to your previous quote.
    ok, you agree with me that ps2 can improve Dreamcast games.
    about poor image quality and texture I disagree with you, but I don't disagree just for disagreeing we already discussed it, I said the PS2 can make crisp games but most of the time that wasn't the focus of the developers, I believed by Sony's order, among the good IQ PS2 games is Champions of Norrath, Jak 2, Tekken Tag.

    I think the fairest way to compare PS2 with Dreamcast is by using games that have PC, ps2 and DC versions, the console that best matches the PC in textures and IQ wins. DOA2 favors Dreamcast because the ps2 version is an early game.
    And why do I say that? for the base will be neither console nor another, it will be a more powerful machine. For when a game is from DC, the PS2 user may claim that the power of the PS2 was not used and if the game is from PS2 the DC user may claim that the port was poorly made.


    i'm not a ps2 fan, i'm very angry how hype on it was so big that it got to the point of dreamcast basically not selling a single unit in japan, sony lied and people would go to stores in japan to return dreamcast and exchange for ps1 games or wait to buy ps2, I call this strategy "freeze" because it's a dispute between a product that exists on the market against a ''ghost'', so people end up waiting and it causes many losses to the market competitor, Saturn suffered because of this, as Nintendo did marketing asking people to wait for the best..then N64 came out and what we saw was a big-blur using cartridges.
    That's the thing. You realize that all the GPU features that relate to image quality were auto on the DC? Very little programming input was needed. They didn't need to be programmed from scratch like the ps2. Or the fact the ps2 has less blending modes than the DC despite being faster on transparency. It's those little things that add up like having to rely on low color textures and such. Then interlaced framebuffer. Can you in good faith tell me that's not bad i.q.? It boggles my mind how you think programming certain things from scratch when it should be included already in hardware like on the DC. This is why I don't believe when u say you aren't a ps2 , you're forgiving these big fault then blaming devs for something that's not on them. I love the ps2 man over 30 games and aknowledge it was a superb machine but you can't give it credit where it didn't earn it. From what I remember anti aliasing on the ps2 hardware was built in but broken, like seriously?

    On the whole hype strategy it was effective. Some people actually thought it was a super computer lol.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 12-03-2019 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post

    On the whole hype strategy it was effective. Some people actually thought it was a super computer lol.

    Funny you should say that but both the PS2 (to a lesser extent) and the PS3 were used in super computer applications in a number of Universities, its quite funny to me that you mentioned this and in my Google new feed I got this article:

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/3/2...th-anniversary

    The attempt to turn the PS2 in to a true super computer wasn't all that successful...

    Quote: "Researchers had been messing with the idea of using graphics processors to boost their computing power for years. The idea is that the same power that made it possible to render Shadow of the Colossus’ grim storytelling was also capable of doing massive calculations — if researchers could configure the machines the right way. If they could link them together, suddenly, those consoles or computers started to be far more than the sum of their parts. This was cluster computing, and it wasn’t unique to PlayStations; plenty of researchers were trying to harness computers to work as a team, trying to get them to solve increasingly complicated problems.
    The game consoles entered the supercomputing scene in 2002 when Sony released a kit called Linux for the PlayStation 2. “It made it accessible,” Craig Steffen said. “They built the bridges, so that you could write the code, and it would work.” Steffen is now a senior research scientist at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA). In 2002, he had just joined the group and started working on a project with the goal of buying a bunch of PS2s and using the Linux kits to hook them (and their Emotion Engine central processing units) together into something resembling a supercomputer.
    They hooked up between 60 and 70 PlayStation 2s, wrote some code, and built out a library. “It worked okay, it didn’t work superbly well,” Steffen said. There were technical issues with the memory — two specific bugs that his team had no control over.
    “Every time you ran this thing, it would cause the kernel on whatever machine you ran it on to kind of go into this weird unstable state and it would have to be rebooted, which was a bummer,” Steffen said.

    They shut the project down relatively quickly and moved on to other questions at the NCSA. Steffen still keeps one of the old PS2s on his desk as a memento of the program."



    The PS3 though was a different story....

    Quote: "But that’s not where PlayStation’s supercomputing adventures met their end. The PS3 entered the scene in late 2006 with powerful hardware and an easier way to load Linux onto the devices. Researchers would still need to link the systems together, but suddenly, it was possible for them to imagine linking together all of those devices into something that was a game-changer instead of just a proof-of-concept prototype.That’s certainly what black hole researcher Gaurav Khanna was imagining over at UMass Dartmouth. “Doing pure period simulation work on black holes doesn’t really typically attract a lot of funding, it’s just because it doesn’t have too much relevance to society,” Khanna said.
    Money was tight, and it was getting tighter. So Khanna and his colleagues were brainstorming, trying to think of solutions. One of the people in his department was an avid gamer and mentioned the PS3’s Cell processor, which was made by IBM. A similar kind of chip was being used to build advanced supercomputers. “So we got kind of interested in it, you know, is this something interesting that we could misuse to do science?” Khanna says.Inspired by the specs of Sony’s new machine, the astrophysicist started buying up PS3s and building his own supercomputer. It took Khanna several months to get the code into shape and months more to clean up his program into a working order. He started with eight, but by the time he was done, he had his own supercomputer, pieced together out of 176 consoles and ready to run his experiments — no jockeying for space or paying other researchers to run his simulations of black holes. Suddenly, he could run complex computer models or win cryptography competitions at a fraction of the cost of a more typical supercomputer."

    There was a number of other PS3 based super computers developed and mentioned but I'm not going to completely rip off the article...lol. I've linked it instead so that you can read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Ratchet and Clank does hit 6 million PPS but it has severe sacrifices to save RAM. It uses 8-colour textures.

    Still though, Ratchet and Clank is one of the first games to use the PS2's strengths and I can't see it being done on Dreamcast.

    This part of your comment is wrong, there was no sacrifice for Ratchet and Clank to run over 6M PPS, PS2 can't suffer to run a game made for it, the 8 bit palletized textures, there are many myths, as if it were synonymous with low quality but the truth is that 8 bit palletizing is the way the PS2 works the textures in all its games (in all its games). The method is to store the textures in fewer colors and then apply filters to it. Works as a form of texture compression on PS2 hardware.

    I disagree that DC has better textures than PS2 in games that use the power of PS2, for example in Half Life 2001 Dreamcast operates using VQ compression to 16 Bit color, PS2 operates as always palletizing at 8 bit for a final result at 24 bit color, textures in Half life are better on PS2, this is just an example to show that there is a myth involving palletized textures.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 12-03-2019 at 05:48 PM.

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