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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I was gonna eventually respond to that, I also got some stuff to say about Code Veronica on PS2. I post in a ton of threads, with topics as far as discussing civil war in America. So I really balance my time between each thread.


    But I really like how Resident Evil 4 on PS2 has that sepia effect I was talking about. Imagine if they got that effect in a Shenmue Dreamcast game.

    So whats the situation with Space Channel 5 Part 2? Was the game a low-effort, and could've been running at 60 FPS? Or do all those character animations and graphical effects take up too much RAM?
    Shenmue 2 did get a sepia effect on the Xbox as part of one the filters no? Well I guess since the frame buffer effects went bye bye that meant also no color manipulation effects on the frame for PC.

    For space channel 5 part 2 I don't think it's lack of effort. It shows a lot of work went into it. I think ram may have been the main issue, storing all those models/ texture/animations and short sound effects. Followed by CPU usage for multiple animated models , I mean they felt the need to do backface culling on the characters and that's something Dreamcast games rarely do.

    Then they use a lot of vertex color/specular , environment maps combined even on chracters clothing or accessories. Not afraid to transparency here and there. Seems really well balanced for a game who probably didn't have the budget of shenmue. They did well.

    Next up is Virtua athlete 2k on the ps2. Sigh.. that one is a mess man. So what do you think of res4 , doable on the DC right?

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    Resident Evil 4 on Dreamcast would be like Burnout 3 on Dreamcast. In may be possible in terms of polygons, but it would be defeating the purpose of how the games were designed. The reason the games have moderate polycounts is because they are loaded with effects, septia effect, full-screen motion blur, bloom etc. and only like 1/4 of the effects would be transferred to the Dreamcast port.
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    Also Cloofoofoo me and you are both doing some productive documentation about 6th gen hardware that will be useful for the gaming world in a niche way, but I hope you aren't using an image host thats gonna delete your images in 5 years. I've seen that happen in so many threads, I use Imgur because it seems like they'll be around for a long time.
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  4. #2434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Resident Evil 4 on Dreamcast would be like Burnout 3 on Dreamcast. In may be possible in terms of polygons, but it would be defeating the purpose of how the games were designed. The reason the games have moderate polycounts is because they are loaded with effects, septia effect, full-screen motion blur, bloom etc. and only like 1/4 of the effects would be transferred to the Dreamcast port.
    By I was asking specifically about the resident evil 4 pc version to dc port. It had no frame buffer effects and even with NOTHING clipped still does 2 million pps. Missing lighting + static lighting. I suspect the only thing holding back would be ram space but that's what texture compression is for.

    True the color effects are nice alot are pretty tiring like constant full screen blur on some ps2 games, the sepia effect was kinda awful to be honest.

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    I don't really care for preserving my own images as hunting down img hosting stuff is annoying. I usually just use the forum upload, it just happens I don't like how it's done here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    By I was asking specifically about the resident evil 4 pc version to dc port. It had no frame buffer effects and even with NOTHING clipped still does 2 million pps. Missing lighting + static lighting. I suspect the only thing holding back would be ram space but that's what texture compression is for.

    True the color effects are nice alot are pretty tiring like constant full screen blur on some ps2 games, the sepia effect was kinda awful to be honest.
    It might be possible. I usually believe late 6th gen games aren't possible on Dreamcast but sometimes there are exceptions. Also the reality is I got no interest whatsoever in game genres like Resident Evil or Silent Hill, compared to something like shoot-em-ups or racing games. But that might not be the case for TA or SegaAMD.

    Anyways I've been looking at a PS2 game thats very fascinating for a specific reason, hopefully I can post it tonight.
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    It would be interesting to measure this, maybe 6M PPS



  8. #2438
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    It would be interesting to measure this, maybe 6M PPS


    It's not. It was one of the first games I measured. I don't have the number at the moment but it's more like 2.5 mpp to 4 mpp. I'll get the exact number later but it's like 30k to 50k per frame at 60fps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    It's not. It was one of the first games I measured. I don't have the number at the moment but it's more like 2.5 mpp to 4 mpp. I'll get the exact number later but it's like 30k to 50k per frame at 60fps.
    Still a hell of a lot.

    Also I gotta wait until tomorrow to post that PS2 game I mentioned, unexpectedly I got hit with a heavy dose of the sleep drug.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    It's not. It was one of the first games I measured. I don't have the number at the moment but it's more like 2.5 mpp to 4 mpp. I'll get the exact number later but it's like 30k to 50k per frame at 60fps.
    nice, if you can try to find the peak. Yharnamresident greatly value the peak numbers.

    I've been spending time admiring PS2 Monster Hunter Wow! it's very beautiful, with bushes, monsters with good textures, clouds that make shadows, at this point I disagree with you, for example a particular game makes 1.5M polygons on PS2, a different Dreamcast game makes 1.5M polygons, so you conclude that it could handle the PS2 game, for example Shadow of the Colossus, I suspect it count is within the Dreamcast numbers, but it has a very large map, so even empty DC couldn't handle together, map and make those same polygons, in this situation. RE4 has large map too.

  11. #2441
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    nice, if you can try to find the peak. Yharnamresident greatly value the peak numbers.

    I've been spending time admiring PS2 Monster Hunter Wow! it's very beautiful, with bushes, monsters with good textures, clouds that make shadows, at this point I disagree with you, for example a particular game makes 1.5M polygons on PS2, a different Dreamcast game makes 1.5M polygons, so you conclude that it could handle the PS2 game, for example Shadow of the Colossus, I suspect it count is within the Dreamcast numbers, but it has a very large map, so even empty DC couldn't handle together, map and make those same polygons, in this situation. RE4 has large map too.
    Re4 maps arent as big as you think. They are loaded by sections/load points, you can literally dash beginning to end of a map in less than 2 minutes by ignoring the enemies . This is one game the I can see the dreamcast handling especially with a few optimizations. There isnt anything impressive bout the pc version. Notice how I said its does like 65K per frame with NO clipping on pc at 30 fps. That puts it in shenmue 2,wacky races range and a few other games on the dc. Yet those games do some form of clipping on the dc, wasting cpu time, keep that in mind. Thats pc, on ps2 it backface culls a crap ton to save fillrate Since its doing depth of field and a few other framebuffer effects, running less than 1mpps @ 30 fps.

    Shadow of the colossus has alot of physics and tailor made for the ps2 effect wise, It wouldnt work on the dc. Bad example.

    Rumble roses is with in the range I said but towards the lower end. Seems it might a game dreamcast would be able to run just fine with a couple of changes @ 60 fps. The characters are super detailed but the arenas are not, they are just textured/lit well. And it doesnt do backface cull.

    34,169 tris per frame x 60 fps = 2.05 million polygons per second .

    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 11-05-2019 at 01:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    34,169 tris per frame x 60 fps = 2.05 million polygons per second .

    Great results for a fighting game, this game has mud effects, background animation on the screens, very lively crowd.

    I noticed something fantastic, Rumble Roses, 34k tris but 100k verts, burnout 3 on the previous pages was doing 117k verts, UFC Dreamcast 25k verts 25k tris, Pride UFC PS2 130k verts 43k tris and Virtua fighter 4 122k verts 40k tris, while all Dreamcast games that have been measured so far, blender shows that the number of triangles and the number of verts are equal. , very interesting

    edit: polygons count vs Verts count: http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Polygon_Count
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 11-05-2019 at 10:19 AM.

  13. #2443
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Great results for a fighting game, this game has mud effects, background animation on the screens, very lively crowd.

    I noticed something fantastic, Rumble Roses, 34k tris but 100k verts, burnout 3 on the previous pages was doing 117k verts, UFC Dreamcast 25k verts 25k tris, Pride UFC PS2 130k verts 43k tris and Virtua fighter 4 122k verts 40k tris, while all Dreamcast games that have been measured so far, blender shows that the number of triangles and the number of verts are equal. , very interesting
    Don't pay attention to that. But if you must it's how it's captured. The simulator for the ps2 captures the scene itself into an obj into separate triangles. Meaning is you take the polygon count times 3 it should give u the vertex count or close.

    On the DC emulator there's no such function so we use external tools, the external tools captures what's in the memory which I am guessing it's triangle strips. Triangle strip share verts leading almost 1:1 ratio of verts to triangles in best case. Not always true is some games because they might render something's different.


    Edit: might do another capture with the mud seeing how you like it so much. Next game is going to be draconus cult of the wyrm. Was supposed to be a released game but was pushed back and to top it off it had to be reworked because they tried to push the on paper limits and failed.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 11-05-2019 at 10:41 AM.

  14. #2444
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    nice, if you can try to find the peak. Yharnamresident greatly value the peak numbers.
    I like big polycounts and I cannot lie

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Re4 maps arent as big as you think. They are loaded by sections/load points, you can literally dash beginning to end of a map in less than 2 minutes by ignoring the enemies . This is one game the I can see the dreamcast handling especially with a few optimizations. There isnt anything impressive bout the pc version. Notice how I said its does like 65K per frame with NO clipping on pc at 30 fps. That puts it in shenmue 2,wacky races range and a few other games on the dc. Yet those games do some form of clipping on the dc, wasting cpu time, keep that in mind. Thats pc, on ps2 it backface culls a crap ton to save fillrate Since its doing depth of field and a few other framebuffer effects, running less than 1mpps @ 30 fps.
    We should also mention the GameCube version, people have looked at it in Dolphin and said it runs at a legit 6 million PPS.

    Obviously way beyond what the Dreamcast could handle, Triggerheart is the only Dreamcast game that will hit 4 million PPS and only for a split-second.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I noticed something fantastic, Rumble Roses, 34k tris but 100k verts, burnout 3 on the previous pages was doing 117k verts, UFC Dreamcast 25k verts 25k tris, Pride UFC PS2 130k verts 43k tris and Virtua fighter 4 122k verts 40k tris, while all Dreamcast games that have been measured so far, blender shows that the number of triangles and the number of verts are equal. , very interesting
    Yes take that with a grain of salt, personally I tried hard to get accurate PS2 numbers but the vertice count is the only thing that can't seem to be solved.


    Anyways I'll start doing some captures of that fascinating PS2 game I was talking about.
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  15. #2445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I like big polycounts and I cannot lie

    We should also mention the GameCube version, people have looked at it in Dolphin and said it runs at a legit 6 million PPS.

    Obviously way beyond what the Dreamcast could handle, Triggerheart is the only Dreamcast game that will hit 4 million PPS and only for a split-second.

    Yes take that with a grain of salt, personally I tried hard to get accurate PS2 numbers but the vertice count is the only thing that can't seem to be solved.


    Anyways I'll start doing some captures of that fascinating PS2 game I was talking about.
    Sigh you ignore most of what I say. I explained up there what exactly the ps2 obj capture is doing I'll give you an example : pride fc 43,633 Tris captured x 3 vertex = 130,899 vertex. The ps2 captures vertex count is not a mystery and it doesn't take a genius to figure that it was programmed to spit out individual triangle.

    The only reason the Dreamcast gives different number is due to the capture method. It's trying to imitate triangles strips

    Proof:

    Why are you even mentioning the GameCube version? The GameCube version is super amazing but it's the PC version who's a dumbed down version of a version that was already dumbed down that could run on the DC.

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