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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I remember it too, Moore was saying that he had to make the call in that he announced the end of production to the public and press, not that SOA makes the calls on SEGA pulling out of the hardware.

    Also TA you live in a country where soccer(football) is very popular, which Dreamcast soccer game has the most impressive graphics
    Back then Virtual Striker 2 looked amazing and Virtual Striker 4 on the Cube looked out of this world too

    Well if the RAM would be an issue, they've could've done minor cut-backs like decrease the draw distance and put in more loading screens.
    I would agree
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I remember it too, Moore was saying that he had to make the call in that he announced the end of production to the public and press, not that SOA makes the calls on SEGA pulling out of the hardware.
    Perhaps he meant he literally had to make the phone call that Sega is leaving hardware, not "call" as in making a decision:

    So on January 31 2001 we said Sega is leaving hardware somehow I got to make that call, not the Japanese. I had to fire a lot of people, it was not a pleasant day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Back then Virtual Striker 2 looked amazing and Virtual Striker 4 on the Cube looked out of this world too
    Yes Virtua Striker 2 is a good looking game but the Dreamcast is capable of more than that, also I've already posted Virtua Striker 2.




    I've taken a look at Maximum Speed for the Atomiswave, this game uses the Daytona USA 2001 engine and no surprise that both games run at the same polycounts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Perhaps he meant he literally had to make the phone call that Sega is leaving hardware, not "call" as in making a decision.
    He went into great detail with EDGE in an old interview. But looking over that, noway would anyway at SEGA America or Europe would have be allowed to make a call on SEGA pulling out of the Console business . SEGA Japan are the paymasters and it was be the top brass at SEGA Japan that would have made such a call. I thought it was a poor show on their part, that they looked to let SOA announce it, rather than SOJ.

    Yes Virtua Striker 2 is a good looking game but the Dreamcast is capable of more than that, also I've already posted Virtua Striker 2
    I can tell you know, they weren't any football game that looked better than VS II on the DC, never mind running at 60 fps. That game looked better than the 1st version of Pro or Fifa on the PS2.

    I've taken a look at Maximum Speed for the Atomiswave, this game uses the Daytona USA 2001 engine and no surprise that both games run at the same polycounts
    But they're not the same genre. Having 11 Vs 11 players running around the pitch and at times all being displayed at the same time it very taxing for hardware, like it was for NFL games back then
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    I have extracted some as well. 3 games: daytona usa 2001 , my tennis life and wacky races(dc vs ps2 comparison).wacky races might the highest triangles per frame game on the dc.

    My tennis life/Boku no Tennis Jinsei was done by the guys who did coaster dreams. Looks kinda crappy but it seems to be pumping out quite a bit of polygons.

    My tennis life/Boku no Tennis Jinsei - 27,525 triangles per frame x 60 fps = 1.6 Mpolygons per sec( always runs around at this while 2vs2)




    Daytona usa 2001 - 28,012 tris per frame x 60 = 1.6 Mpolygons per sec( this seems around the upper limit for the game)




    Wack races comparison between dreamcast and ps2. Both are the same scene with the same racers on split screen. The ps2 version runs at a steady 60 fps while the dc version is 30fps. This game might be the highest per frame count on the dc. Not to mention the characters are cell shaded(only the characters not the cars) and retains black outlines even while splitscreen.

    Wacky races - dc: 73,167 tris per frame x 30 fps = 2.2 Mpolygos per sec. Ps2 : 78,179 x 60 fps = 4.7 Mpolygons per sec.


    Dreamcast:


    ps2:


    I've taken a look at Maximum Speed for the Atomiswave, this game uses the Daytona USA 2001 engine and no surprise that both games run at the same polycounts
    I doubt that. For daytona the programming was done by genki and supervised by amusement vision, i even doubt it uses any code from tokyo xtreme racer, it just performs much better. Maximum speed was done by sims, the guys who used to work on the sega bass fishing series and still work on fishing games till today. But hey, you never know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Wacky races - dc: 73,167 tris per frame x 30 fps = 2.2 Mpolygos per sec.
    Very good, I had already posted these numbers, but now we have the confirmation of the software.
    It's a very specific game, but the peak of 70,000 per scene is a very high number, the only dreamcast game to reach that peak. This suggests that contrary to popular belief, the more realistic the game, the less polygons per frame will be created, which explains the average of 34/40 at 30fps most demanding games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Very good, I had already posted these numbers, but now we have the confirmation of the software.
    It's a very specific game, but the peak of 70,000 per scene is a very high number, the only dreamcast game to reach that peak. This suggests that contrary to popular belief, the more realistic the game, the less polygons per frame will be created, which explains the average of 34/40 at 30fps most demanding games.
    I think it has to do more with resource allocation. I mean resident evil code Veronica on the DC runs from 14k to 30k per frame @ 30 fps and Sega bass fishing 2 cruises at 25k to 32k @ 60 fps easily. Difference? Code Veronica has a lot of lighting, you can use the lighter then go stand under a swinging ceiling lamp and they probably already have 1- 2 directional lights for the scene. That's extreme lighting computations that falls squarely on the CPU, not the mention it still has to run enemy AI , compute polygons , physics and more probably more. While Sega bass fishing 2 probably only has 1 directional light to simulate an outdoor environment, different priorities. They both look realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ews.microsoft1

    If you can post a source saying that SOJ did it then I might end up believing it. But what Peter said sounded very realistic and its the same as what everyone says about the Dreamcast death.
    DC sales performance discussion often focus on the US market since it is where it fared better.
    The launch was record breaking there.
    What only few point out is that in US DC sell-through in the first few launch months (Sep.-Dec. 1999) was higher than the total sales for the whole 12 months of 2000, this is despite the offers Sega put in place for the Holiday season '00 to push the console sales (DC sales shot up in September 2000 after months of sluggish sales when Sega slashed the price to $149).

    DC sell-through in US in 1999: 1.48M
    DC sell-through in US in 2000: 1.30M

    Source: NPD

    This in the context that PS2 had just launched in US for a few months and had big stock problems and that both Nintendo and Microsoft would launch their next-gen console the following year.
    If Sega really wanted to continue they would have to inject much more money to counter Sony and then Nintendo and Microsoft spending.
    This after they already took loans for about $1Bn between 1998 and early 1999 to launch the DC and were losing hundreds of millions each last few fiscal years.

    DC was a really beloved console by a niche but it was never embraced by a more mainstream audience in the brief initial stint it had.
    Last edited by Folco; 09-09-2019 at 10:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    The Wii was successful thanks solely to the motion control gimmick, hardware wise it is a joke - nothing more than a clock speed boosted NGC. I'm sure there are probably millions of Wiis out there that only ever had Wii Sports on them.
    Nintendo were just too cheap to invest in new hardware, they even recycled the same (now) ancient CPU a 3rd time with the Wii U - which we all know was an epic failure
    Actually as of now Wii has the second best tie ratio of any Nintendo console, the second best total software sales and the best first-party sales.
    There might be many who only bought a Wii to play Wii Sports but overall software sales were good.

    I also disagree that it was just the motion controls to have sold the console.
    In reality the motion controls were just a mean to a end (that end was attracting people who were scared by the standard controls by lowering the input interface's complexity barrier).
    Have Nintendo bundled the Wii with Sin & Punishment 2 (which is freaking great) instead of Wii Sports it wouldn't have had remotely the same impact on the market.
    The strategy behind DS was identical but with a different input interface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I think it has to do more with resource allocation.
    yes it is true, what differentiates our views are small details details.
    For example, the most advanced action game (polygonal counting) for DC is Floigan Bro which operates over 2,2 million. This suggests that the larger the polygonal load, the more Gouraud Shading polygons will be, this was the limit, but that's not the kind of game we expected from Dreamcast in 2002 and beyond, to compete with ps2 / GC ,Dreamcast would need more games like HeadHunter (about 1 million polygons)

    so following this resource allocation thinking, the most advanced Dreamcast games from 2002 onwards would be games with 600k polygons or less. but I wouldn't mind play more games on the HeadHunter level.

    Polygonal count is very overrated 500k / 1kk are good numbers as long as there is artistic commitment, but we would see more and more linear or Cel shading games in the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Its the follow up to the 3DS in all but name, with a Nintendo gimmick. Its clear with Nintendo merging its handheld and Consumer teams into one. That's Nintendo focus and they're not interested in making an under the TV console that can compeat with MS or Sony spec's . To Nintendo's credit mind, its working out well for them.
    Switch isn't a direct follow up to the their handheld console line neither of their home console line.
    It's a hybrid and it's hybrid nature is a prerequisite of what is the big selling point to the console (letting play wherever, whenever and how one want in any condition).
    Look at the console and software prices and then compare it to 3DS' ones and remember how Nintendo had to slash the price of 3DS by $70 from $249 to $169 just 5 months after the launch.

    With this move however Nintendo is unifying their software pipeline which is a huge advantage with the constant increase in development times and costs.
    Now Nintendo is going to released a "switch-less" handheld-only Switch which will run run the same exact software of the Switch without require further resources and investments other than the one already allocated for the successful Switch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Thats not the whole story. Nintendo discovered the low-powered hardware + a gimmick strategy, and it worked perfect for the DS and Wii. They then tried it again with the 3DS and it somewhat worked, but then it completely failed with the Wii U. Now finally with the Switch they created a feature that closer to innovation.
    Actually Axel's post is closer to Nintendo's console strategy adopted since after the GC than yours.
    The non-conventional hardware solution (what you call gimmick) need to serve, in conjunction with software, a highly enticing purpose for a broad audience otherwise the console risk to struggle (and Nintendo will still suck up the cost of the non-conventional hardware).
    The innovation can't be just something for the sake to be different because that won't help the console chance in the market.
    All 5 Nintendo consoles post GC (DS, Wii, 3DS, WiiU, Switch) follow this general strategy however the end result is different because the goodness of the goal they want to achieve is different (Wii/DS and Switch is really good, WiiU wasn't good and in fact it was rejected by the market).
    Of course execution of the plan is also very important (for example if Switch had a very slowy OS like the WiiU that would compromise the whole selling point to let people play whenever they have a bit of free time).
    3DS is the more gimmicky of the the above console, Nintendo tried to explain the benefits of perceiving deepness for gameplay but in the grand scheme of things it was weak.
    The reason why Nintendo had to shift the focus from the touch screen to the stereoscopic screen above was that Smartphones had the same touch screen and were eating their casual market alive (and worse of all with F2P games).

    Nintendo (or any other first-party driven console makers than now don't exist anymore) can't counter Sony (and Microsoft) third-party driven model for third-party support because it isn't in their DNA.
    However third-party driven console makers like Sony or Microsoft cannot counter a strategy based on unconventional hardware (because to attract third-party support they need to be safe and standardized), Nintendo is fit for this strategy because it's their first-party software that push the console top success.

    Regardless of the position of Sega had when it was a console maker, this was the real challenge it had to fend off after Sony brought their paradigm shift with the first PlayStation.
    Last edited by Folco; 09-09-2019 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Folco View Post
    Switch isn't a direct follow up to the their handheld console line neither of their home console line.
    It's a hybrid and it's hybrid nature is a prerequisite of what is the big selling point to the console (letting play wherever, whenever and how one want in any condition).
    You can call the Switch that, but I think it's clear to most people, its the next Nintendo handheld, only one like the Nomad one can play on the TV too. I would be interested to see the sales ratio of the 3DS to that of the Swtich or other Nintendo Handhelds, to see if there's a correlation. Because 'to me' I doubt anyone how owns a Switch is using that as their main under the TV console

    With this move however Nintendo is unifying their software pipeline which is a huge advantage with the constant increase in development times and costs.
    Sure for costs, but not so for development times. NCL is still the say from that and very reliant on outsourcing for their software. Mario 8 and Zelda were Wii U ports and all we've had from NCL In-House, is Arms and Mario, nothing since and nothing coming from NCL In-House untill next year at the earliest. To me, it's still the old NCL for the number of In-House games they can pump-out.

    Please read that doesn't mean the games aren't quality or NCL is struggling for market share or money or any of that nonsense

    However third-party driven console makers like Sony or Microsoft cannot counter a strategy based on unconventional hardware
    I would put to you that SONY 1st party games are what in part have driven sales of the PS4 and why MS has gone on a massive spending spree on setting up new studios and buying another 5 .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I can tell you know, they weren't any football game that looked better than VS II on the DC, never mind running at 60 fps. That game looked better than the 1st version of Pro or Fifa on the PS2.
    Thats a big statement. The game must've made a big impression. I'm probably only gonna look at UEFA Dream Soccer.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    My tennis life/Boku no Tennis Jinsei was done by the guys who did coaster dreams. Looks kinda crappy but it seems to be pumping out quite a bit of polygons.

    My tennis life/Boku no Tennis Jinsei - 27,525 triangles per frame x 60 fps = 1.6 Mpolygons per sec( always runs around at this while 2vs2)
    It looks like a Wii game. I don't mean in terms of performance, but literally how the characters are modeled looks like Wii style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I doubt that. For daytona the programming was done by genki and supervised by amusement vision, i even doubt it uses any code from tokyo xtreme racer, it just performs much better. Maximum speed was done by sims, the guys who used to work on the sega bass fishing series and still work on fishing games till today. But hey, you never know.
    Its blatantly obvious. Every graphical effect and layout is the same as Daytona USA 2001. Even the game menus are the same.



    Quote Originally Posted by Folco View Post
    Actually as of now Wii has the second best tie ratio of any Nintendo console, the second best total software sales and the best first-party sales.
    There might be many who only bought a Wii to play Wii Sports but overall software sales were good.
    I also disagree that it was just the motion controls to have sold the console.
    In reality the motion controls were just a mean to a end (that end was attracting people who were scared by the standard controls by lowering the input interface's complexity barrier).
    Quote Originally Posted by Folco View Post
    Switch isn't a direct follow up to the their handheld console line neither of their home console line.
    It's a hybrid and it's hybrid nature is a prerequisite of what is the big selling point to the console (letting play wherever, whenever and how one want in any condition).
    Look at the console and software prices and then compare it to 3DS' ones and remember how Nintendo had to slash the price of 3DS by $70 from $249 to $169 just 5 months after the launch.
    Actually Axel's post is closer to Nintendo's console strategy adopted since after the GC than yours.
    The non-conventional hardware solution (what you call gimmick) need to serve, in conjunction with software, a highly enticing purpose for a broad audience otherwise the console risk to struggle (and Nintendo will still suck up the cost of the non-conventional hardware).
    The innovation can't be just something for the sake to be different because that won't help the console chance in the market.
    All 5 Nintendo consoles post GC (DS, Wii, 3DS, WiiU, Switch) follow this general strategy however the end result is different because the goodness of the goal they want to achieve is different (Wii/DS and Switch is really good, WiiU wasn't good and in fact it was rejected by the market).
    Damn, a huge amount of damage control.

    I wanna focus on the main topic of this thread, so maybe someone else here can give you a thorough reply.
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    My point with bringing up Nintendo was that they knew they couldn't compete with Sony and Microsoft on raw power/price so they adopted a strategy of innovating in one area (to make the games more accessible) and cutting everything that wasn't necessary. If a company like Sega wanted to stay in the console market, especially with the Dreamcast or hypothetical Naomi 2-based console, I think they would have had to do something similar. If they weren't going to innovate with hardware then it made sense to put their games on as many consoles as possible, which is what ended up happening.

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    I think Sega was gonna go 3rd party either way, I just wish it was after they gave the Dreamcast a proper lifespan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    My point with bringing up Nintendo was that they knew they couldn't compete with Sony and Microsoft on raw power/price so they adopted a strategy of innovating in one area (to make the games more accessible) and cutting everything that wasn't necessary. If a company like Sega wanted to stay in the console market, especially with the Dreamcast or hypothetical Naomi 2-based console, I think they would have had to do something similar. If they weren't going to innovate with hardware then it made sense to put their games on as many consoles as possible, which is what ended up happening.
    Nintendo had and still has more cash reserves in the bank than SONY. Nintendo if it really wanted too, had/has got way more than enough money to go to the likes of AMD, hand over a Billion and have them develope a cutting edge GPU/CPU. But Nintendo has always been a well run corp and also a Toy corp and I would guess, didn't want to enter the market of high price consoles or where one Nintendo was taking a massive hit per console sold.
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