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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the textures subject is a complex theme, I see that games like Sonic Adventure 2 excellent textures on Dreamcast, just as GT4 has great textures on PS2, so the question comes: which console produces better textures? Dreamcast fan will say, let's use DOA2 but I believe the only way to know is not to use exclusive game but to use PC games as well as PC is a more powerful platform, the console that is closest to the PC in textures, wins.
    Sonic Adv II is a more simple game really . I wouldn't look to use DOA II myself, but more games like Rayman II, where the texture work on the DC version is incredible
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Sonic Adv II is a more simple game really . I wouldn't look to use DOA II myself, but more games like Rayman II, where the texture work on the DC version is incredible
    I hear a good comparison would grandia 2 ps2 vs DC. I hear the ps2 is an aliased mess with low Rez texture and glitches galore. I think people are being overly harsh and the difference might be minor but I personally haven't played the ps2 version, from extracting models and textures from the gdrom I know for a fact grandia 2 has pretty high res textures. Would be interesting to see how ps2 coped.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 12-06-2019 at 12:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the textures subject is a complex theme, I see that games like Sonic Adventure 2 excellent textures on Dreamcast, just as GT4 has great textures on PS2, so the question comes: which console produces better textures? Dreamcast fan will say, let's use DOA2 but I believe the only way to know is not to use exclusive game but to use PC games as well as PC is a more powerful platform, the console that is closest to the PC in textures, wins.

    but by my observation most multiplatform games DC-PS2 have the same textures, others in turn like 18 wheeler APT have better textures on PS2, DOA2 and Ecco have better textures in the Dreamcast version.
    I don't think that's really in question. Dreamcast has a clear advantage in texturing. The PS2 games that play to the system's strengths, and clearly go beyond what the Dreamcast can do (e.g. Ratchet & Clank), still aren't very impressive on their textures specifically. And, even if a game uses the same textures on both systems, those same textures will look better on DC by default.


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    Japanese Sonic CD FTW!!! Master of Shinobi Ecco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    We can come back to this in a couple days. I probably get sick once every week because of my living location. But I can show you some screenshots to explain the situation with PS2 games that show drastically low polycounts.


    Also Ecco has been curious about the Dreamcast vs. PS2 version of Ecco for a while, does anyone wanna do a comparison for him?
    ^I do have the title for both DC and PS2. And it looks so much brighter and sharper on DC, using AV cables for both consoles.

    Mainly I was curious about the idea that the blame is on the PS2's lame AV cables, and it seems that people have confirmed that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I don't think that's really in question. Dreamcast has a clear advantage in texturing. The PS2 games that play to the system's strengths, and clearly go beyond what the Dreamcast can do (e.g. Ratchet & Clank), still aren't very impressive on their textures specifically. And, even if a game uses the same textures on both systems, those same textures will look better on DC by default.
    Your statements aren't supported by the games.

    for example PS2 makes better metal textures than Dreamcast in any game, in Half life, 18 wheeler, textures are better on PS2, in HeadHunter they are the same as I remember, in Unreal they are slightly better in Dreamcast, in DOA2, Ecco The Dolphin and Grandia 2 they are better in Dreamcast version, 4x4 evo and Quake 3 are better in textures on ps2, all games with Dreamcast in mind.

    frankly Dreamcast can't challenge ps2 in textures, who ever played The Matrix: path of neo, Tekken Tag, onimusha warlords, GT3, Jak 2, MGS2 knows what I'm talking about.

    Edit: There is one more detail that I need to mention: ps2 doesn't use texture for everything, for example, betting a lot on light effects in Yakuza, and there are those bright billboards, instead of the texture that mimics the grass PS2 really produces grass as in Tekken 5 flower satge with bloom. Dreamcast would eventually not be able to reproduce things like that.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 12-06-2019 at 02:35 PM.

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    SO when are you going to make your thread about PS2 is better than Xbox? That will be a fun show.



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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I don't think that's really in question. Dreamcast has a clear advantage in texturing. The PS2 games that play to the system's strengths, and clearly go beyond what the Dreamcast can do (e.g. Ratchet & Clank), still aren't very impressive on their textures specifically. And, even if a game uses the same textures on both systems, those same textures will look better on DC by default.
    Nice work. I will cite you, TA, and gamevet as members that do a good job of being unbiased.
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    I was looking at skies of arcadia, I thought they had a very clever effect to imitate bloom but far far cheaper to do. Its a shame they didnt use it in alot more scenes or during gameplay. Basically They overlaid a quad on the screen and color 1 of the verts a pale yellow and made it not so transparent and the rest 3 verts very transparent. Giving you a light splendor effect/ bloom like effect without having to resort to render to texture. Very clever. I guess it can still mess with the fillrate But imagine not as heavily as real bloom.

    The final image:


    Wireframe no texture, You can see where the vert is colored yellow and overlayed to the screen.


    Solid but not texture, You can see the fullscreen quad and how it makes a yellow like glow:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Could you at least give me a quick overhead of it? Very curious to what your referring to. I looked over multiple games and all signs point to simple viewport clipping and backface culling and Nothing odd or out of place for that.

    Unfortunately I dislike Ecco and it makes me feel super sick to my stomach for some odd reason.
    Its gonna take a lot of screenshots and explaining, I think I can finally do it tonight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ecco View Post
    ^I do have the title for both DC and PS2. And it looks so much brighter and sharper on DC, using AV cables for both consoles.

    Mainly I was curious about the idea that the blame is on the PS2's lame AV cables, and it seems that people have confirmed that.
    Yes that is a problem. The PS2 has absolutely horrible image quality, if you are using composite cables on top of that, then you are really at the very bottom of image quality.

    The PS2 in component cables isn't gonna blow you away, but its still a huge difference. Just search "PS2 component cables" in Amazon and you'll see they're dirt cheap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I was looking at skies of arcadia, I thought they had a very clever effect to imitate bloom but far far cheaper to do. Its a shame they didnt use it in alot more scenes or during gameplay. Basically They overlaid a quad on the screen and color 1 of the verts a pale yellow and made it not so transparent and the rest 3 verts very transparent. Giving you a light splendor effect/ bloom like effect without having to resort to render to texture. Very clever. I guess it can still mess with the fillrate But imagine not as heavily as real bloom.

    The final image:


    Wireframe no texture, You can see where the vert is colored yellow and overlayed to the screen.


    Solid but not texture, You can see the fullscreen quad and how it makes a yellow like glow:
    If they were doing stuff like this, then this is more confirmation that theres something not right with Dreamcast frame buffer effects from a hardware capability perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    If they were doing stuff like this, then this is more confirmation that theres something not right with Dreamcast frame buffer effects from a hardware capability perspective.
    no, we had this conversation b4. There's nothing wrong in the framebuffer department, as I mentioned before the Dreamcast even had MORE blend modes than the ps2 who only had like additive and subtractive, the DC had multiplicative ( if u dunno what IAM talking about Google blend modes) . The problem the Dreamcast had was that the built in transparency hardware was really accurate and easy to use(ORDER INDEPENDENT TRANSPARENCY built in) BUT it's really slow. Super slow compared to opaque and will drag performt down if not used sparingly.

    Edit: anyway the ps2 was really fast as transparency, add co processors to help it even more. They were just short sighted in built features imo. The slowness of transparency of the DC doesn't mean all framebuffer effectss are affected, just the ones that you would overly over the screen. And I think render to texture might not too good for the DC bandwidth anyway.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 12-06-2019 at 09:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    no, we had this conversation b4. There's nothing wrong in the framebuffer department, as I mentioned before the Dreamcast even had MORE blend modes than the ps2 who only had like additive and subtractive, the DC had multiplicative ( if u dunno what IAM talking about Google blend modes) . The problem the Dreamcast had was that the built in transparency hardware was really accurate and easy to use(ORDER INDEPENDENT TRANSPARENCY built in) BUT it's really slow. Super slow compared to opaque and will drag performt down if not used sparingly.

    Edit: anyway the ps2 was really fast as transparency, add co processors to help it even more. They were just short sighted in built features imo. The slowness of transparency of the DC doesn't mean all framebuffer effectss are affected, just the ones that you would overly over the screen. And I think render to texture might not too good for the DC bandwidth anyway.
    So if I get this right(and for good), the Dreamcast has a ton of frame buffer effects, but the Dreamcast handles them super slow so developers came up with make-shift effects like the one in Skies of Arcadia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So if I get this right(and for good), the Dreamcast has a ton of frame buffer effects, but the Dreamcast handles them super slow so developers came up with make-shift effects like the one in Skies of Arcadia?
    Well framebuffer effects are just copies of the screen manipulated using the CPU(in those days) , because of the constant reading/copying of stuff in the vram it eats bandwidth. The ps2 has the upper hand by default because if I understand it had higher bandwidth and the co processors could assits with that.

    Now the Dreamcast GPU has a few unique features like the way it handled transparency using auto sorting of it without programmer input while being extremely accurate. And had very complete list of how it can blend transparency ( blend modes) more so than the ps2. In opaque mode the DC has alot of fillrate( how fast draws pixel) but once you start mixing in transparency it takes a nosedive. So things like multitexturing( unless you do it specific way for the DC) , overlayed render to texture effects come at a heavy cost. If anything there's Homebrew tech demos that show depth of field and bloom , so definitely it can do it, it's just slow though because that's just how the hardware is.

    Edit: Just to shows you the depth of field demo, mind you Homebrew is no where near as fast as the official sdk but it's just to show you it can be done. :
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 12-06-2019 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Well framebuffer effects are just copies of the screen manipulated using the CPU(in those days) , because of the constant reading/copying of stuff in the vram it eats bandwidth. The ps2 has the upper hand by default because if I understand it had higher bandwidth and the co processors could assits with that.
    Oh yes, all that stuff sounds like PS2 strengths.

    Also I'm working on a big post thats almost done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Oh yes, all that stuff sounds like PS2 strengths.

    Also I'm working on a big post thats almost done.
    That was most definitely home turf for the ps2. While the DC hardware doesnt lend itseld well to it , it doesnt mean its impossible. It just has to be planned more carefully like in sakura taisen 4/ skies of arcadia.
    Me too, I am working on a very interesting comparison. Soul calibur dc vs tekken 5 dark resurrection psp vs soul calibur broken destiny psp. With very interesting results. It will go to show how much more important an art style is and how modern tools in crafting it helps over raw power.

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