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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    What you said about Resident Evil 4 seems much more convincing and realistic.


    But we're talking going from 48,000 polygons:



    to 6800 polygons:




    In the Dreamcast version you can see the game does indeed render polygons behind the black bars. But you can still see its super dense in polygons.


    If we look at Chaos Field, the polycounts are slightly lower in the PS2 version because they likely did do some clipping, but its not 1/6th the polycounts:



    22,000 polygons



    24,500 polygons

    No surprise the wireframe is fine:



    Also the game can spike up pretty high. This is when I was taking sloppy screenshots and didn't zoom in, so you can 90% of the polygons are located in the viewing window:



    37,000 polygons


    Don't worry Cloofoofoo I am taking into consideration what you are saying. But I've been using ZeroGS for a year and a half and almost literally everytime the wireframe is messed-up, the plug-in gives N64 polycounts.
    I guess this is where we agree to disagree. I will say zero gs is accurate. You have to realize they can clip as close or as far from the actual "camera" as they want.I go on a game by game basis. I wouldnt know about chaos field but trigger heart and radirgy shows cases of extreme clipping. Does this make them glitched despite your opinion and disbelief of the proof? No. Go dump the frames on the ps2 and see for your self how much was clipped for those games, you just wont understand unless you see it. I think we are done here but Ill leave you with these final shots, they tell pretty much the whole story. Like I said not all games behave the same nor do I claim to know them all but I am 100% sure that in the case of trigger heart and radirgy zerogs is 100% correct. It is disappointing that the ps2 has to draw just a fraction of what the dc does to easily match in those 2 cases.

    Trigger heart first boss on ps2 , look how little much of anything there is on screen, why? because of clipping:


    Same boss and place but on the dreamcast. the terrain extends way past what is needed:


    This is me taking the DC obj dump and manualy deleteing polygons to best match what was on the ps2, almost nothing is left because most polygons where off screen:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I guess this is where we agree to disagree. I will say zero gs is accurate. You have to realize they can clip as close or as far from the actual "camera" as they want.I go on a game by game basis. I wouldnt know about chaos field but trigger heart and radirgy shows cases of extreme clipping. Does this make them glitched despite your opinion and disbelief of the proof? No. Go dump the frames on the ps2 and see for your self how much was clipped for those games, you just wont understand unless you see it. I think we are done here but Ill leave you with these final shots, they tell pretty much the whole story. Like I said not all games behave the same nor do I claim to know them all but I am 100% sure that in the case of trigger heart and radirgy zerogs is 100% correct. It is disappointing that the ps2 has to draw just a fraction of what the dc does to easily match in those 2 cases.
    Great idea, let me do a lot of my own personal research then we'll come back to this.



    So where was I? Oh Gradius V vs Chaos Field comparison. I'm playing Chaos Field in my home theatre, the game is absolutely phenomonal. It really gets your heart beating, and with the best soundtrack ever heard in a shoot-em-up.
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    Also heres my Ratchet and Clank post, buried at the end of the page:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Ratchet and Clank is one of the first games to utilize the PS2's strengths. I can imagine a lot of people finally started seeing what the PS2 is capable of once they saw this game. Unlike a lot of posts in this thread, this isn't a "could it be ported to Dreamcast" post, this is one of the first PS2 games to take a far leap beyond Dreamcast capabilities.


    But first we gotta look at this PS2 Performance Analyzer post:





    It says 6.2 million PPS.

    I went to the same spot in ZeroGS and it gave me 4.9 million PPS. This isn't N64 polycounts(which is usually the case), but its still not the same and I will believe the Performance Analyzer more than ZeroGS.



    Of course the wireframe is a glitchy mess, enemies painting the screen:



    So yes I don't feel I'm getting accurate polycounts. ZeroGS is likely giving me 80% of the real polycounts.


    This is to SegaAMD. You can see this game is using 8-colour textures, look at the path texture:



    Or these mountains:



    A very low amount of colours, its consistent through this entire game.


    Heres the second stage. This screenshot is likely around 110,000 polygons:



    I'd estimate this game hovers around 3.5 to 7 million PPS. I got the game on my game shelve, so if I find a way to get absolutely accurate polycounts, then I will thoroughly go through it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    MGR2? That is a hardly a game to show off PS2 textures and if listen to you the DC can't do grass. I'm sort of amazed you didn't bring up Silent Hill 3. That really is a game with great textures and also polygon beating performance to a DC game. But most of the time when it came to textures and clean high res display the DC had the PS2 beat IMO But if people play 'both' the PS2 and DC versions of DOA II, Grandia II, Rayman II, Code Veronica, Maken X.

    I really don't like the game, but since you talk of FPS's it's hard to beat the textures found in Outtrigger and those in Daytona USA 2001. When the PS2 for me had the adv was in system memory and polygons. In that gen I always thought the XBox was the best.
    yes metal gear solid 2 has excellent 256x256 textures that work well for the game style.

    It has a ps2 launch game called X-squad is a game with 5k polygon characters, it has textures comparable in quality to the main action games for Dreamcast, then was released Onimusha Warlords, Klonoa 2, Tekken Tag itself all with good textures quality all early games.

    Textures are a complex subject like i said. for example, I prefer the early 2001 Red Faction textures over the Outtrigger textures and Burnout 2 textures over Daytona 2001 textures. The best textures I've seen in Dreamcast are PSO, Virtual On, Skies of Arcadia, the other like Sonic adv II, Quake 3, shenmue and Soul Calibur games has good texture too.

    But what the other user commented is a lie Dreamcast doesn't beat the PS2 in textures in all games a simple example is 18 wheeler APT, NBA 2k2, HeadHunter and Rayman 2, these games have the same or better textures on PS2, you can compare Rayman Revolution is above Dreamcast version and in textures some are better on DC but most are better on PS2 version.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 12-07-2019 at 08:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    yes metal gear solid 2 has excellent 256x256 textures that work well for the game style.

    It has a ps2 launch game called X-squad is a game with 5k polygon characters, it has textures comparable in quality to the main action games for Dreamcast, then was released Onimusha Warlords, Klonoa 2, Tekken Tag itself all with good textures quality all early games.

    Textures are a complex subject like i said. for example, I prefer the early 2001 Red Faction textures over the Outtrigger textures and Burnout 2 textures over Daytona 2001 textures. The best textures I've seen in Dreamcast are PSO, Virtual On, Skies of Arcadia, the other like Sonic adv II, Quake 3, shenmue and Soul Calibur games has good texture too.

    But what the other user commented is a lie Dreamcast doesn't beat the PS2 in textures in all games a simple example is 18 wheeler APT, NBA 2k2, HeadHunter and Rayman 2, these games have the same or better textures on PS2, you can compare Rayman Revolution is above Dreamcast version and in textures some are better on DC but most are better on PS2 version.
    I don't get why you want to deny this is the case. The PS2 is only 1.5 years newer than the Dreamcast, its not gonna beat it in every category. You see this with other consoles. The Genesis has a faster processor and higher resolution than the SNES, even though the SNES beats it in every other category. The Saturn has better audio capabilities than the N64, even though the N64 beats it in every other category. The 360 has a better overall GPU than the PS3, even though the PS3 beats it in every other category. This phenomenon exists with tons of consoles that were released at similar times.
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    Well, 360 has a better ram situation than PS3. 512MB unified then the GPU had 10MB EDram. PS3 has a split pool of 512 and only half of it for games. PS3 has a better CPU and larger disc space with Blu ray while 360 was stuck with DVD9. Blue Dragon is 3 discs. Lost Odyssey is 4. When MGS4 released on PS3, for years people port begged it to come to 360. MHS4 had uncompressed audio and there was that photoshopped picture as a joke where the 360 version was on 10-15 discs. That being said I agree with your post overall and your point but it does seem the myth of PS3 way outclassing 360 still has not fully died yet. The biggest advantage PS3 had tho was Blu Ray.



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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Sorry to do this. I don't dislike PS2. I was just not a fan of how it rendered a lot of games. I feel the same way about 3DS. Something about the way 3DS game generally look is hideous to me.Also some of it is just to rag on AMD since PS2 can do no wrong in his eyes.
    I don't like any playstation, I believe ps1 and ps2 have brought bad features to the industry, soon I will make a topic on Saturn Rings there you will understand better.

    But I have to be fair, I've read in this topic that Dreamcast can not only run PS2 games but it can improve them, which is not true, is not true that Dreamcast beats PS2 in texture in every game because even high quality games like HeadHunter are better on PS2, Street Fighter 3 and many others, this texture advantage is a myth that keeps on repeating as I said metal textures are better on ps2, textures with lighiting effects are better plus other capabilities like grass, dust particles and water effects that replace textures and allow you to create complex games.

    I would never compare the PS2 with the Xbox, Xbox's superiority is evident and IMO it's more powerful until the Wii, in turn the PS2 is superior to the gamecube as I posted there in the topic of GC vs PS2, I just don't understand why the ps2 haters don't accept it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Ratchet and Clank is one of the first games to utilize the PS2's strengths. I can imagine a lot of people finally started seeing what the PS2 is capable of once they saw this game. Unlike a lot of posts in this thread, this isn't a "could it be ported to Dreamcast" post, this is one of the first PS2 games to take a far leap beyond Dreamcast capabilities.


    It says 6.2 million PPS.

    This is to SegaAMD. You can see this game is using 8-colour textures, look at the path texture:



    Or these mountains:



    A very low amount of colours, its consistent through this entire game.
    excellent post I tried to add reputation but unfortunately didn't compute.

    I understand that the colors of this game is not a limitation but an artistic choice, inconsistent textures we can find in any game.

    Then I will measure the amount of unique colors per scene in Dreamcast and PS2 games, I will put Ratchet and Clank and some famous Dreamcast games, it will be fun to do this experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    yes metal gear solid 2 has excellent 256x256 textures that work well for the game style.
    Yes, it worked wonders for grey simple metal surfaces or an orange Oil rig . Also, I don't count X-squad as either a true launch game or even a good looking PS2 game.
    For me, it took until DMC and ESPN Track and Field where I started to see some of the PS2 performance and even then Track and Field had the horrid PS2 display with low res jaggies everywhere, but polygons wise it killed most DC games
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    So i decided to use an old trick and activated grandia 2 debug. Lets you control from clipping planes to camera and lights ,so on and so on. Used the camera control to turn off the 30fps lock and move the camera so more of the scene was visible. Tried to SH4 cpu usage below 100%. I used the games performance stat to try and see how much itsactually rendering. So nulldc and the extraction report ALOT of polygons are being rendered but the game its self is claiming its rendering less than half that (and even less verts). I suspect this behaviour might be do to the fact that while cpu might be sending certain amount of geometry BUT the gpu renders even less once it does its own optimization( i remember the gpu main feature was auto clipping in the form of hidden surface removal. ) Its all very interesting. oh i tried the ps2 version of grandia 2, christ what a noisy texture mess that one is and it might be missing lighting by the looks of it.

    This might be how much polygons the cpu submits to the gpu: 53,452 tris per frame x 30 = 1.6 mpps with 3 lights on(ambient term + 1 directional+"darklight")


    Now look at where it says performance , under polygons draw. The actual amount of polygons reported by gpu is much lower: 22,891 tris per frame x 30 fps = 686K pps. less than half extraacted and reported by nulldc.

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    So I was playing Virtua Athlete 2K on real hardware.

    This is another game that gets my full approval. Of course its 1st-party, but still the high polycounts and textures, aluminum maps, super high-res scoreboard, crystal clear transparencies.

    So its got the high polycounts and textures, special mapping effects, the only thing missing is some frame-buffer effects before this game would be the Dreamcast graphical complete package.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So I was playing Virtua Athlete 2K on real hardware.

    This is another game that gets my full approval. Of course its 1st-party, but still the high polycounts and textures, aluminum maps, super high-res scoreboard, crystal clear transparencies.

    So its got the high polycounts and textures, special mapping effects, the only thing missing is some frame-buffer effects before this game would be the Dreamcast graphical complete package.
    It's also non interactive though (or limited interaction). It has framebuffer effects, abuses Crossfade like no tomorrow. I don't remember allot of transparency on that one or environment mapping( what you're calling aluminum napping) but it's been a while. This game could have benefited from anti aliasing the lines become a shimmering mess in the distance but I guess performance wouldn't allow for 60 fps AND 4X resolution super sampling.

    I extracted the player models for this game off the disc, at the highest lod it was 2000 per athlete going all the way down to 1000.

    The ps2 version is the most disappointing mess I've seen. That port straight up sucks. That's on Sega though.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 12-08-2019 at 04:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    It's also non interactive though (or limited interaction). It has framebuffer effects, abuses Crossfade like no tomorrow. I don't remember allot of transparency on that one or environment mapping( what you're calling aluminum napping) but it's been a while. This game could have benefited from anti aliasing the lines become a shimmering mess in the distance but I guess performance wouldn't allow for 60 fps AND 4X resolution super sampling.
    Let me take some screenshots.

    Yes it likely has crossfade, but some spot motion-blur would've been pretty cool.


    Also I was playing more F355 Challenge 3rd person mode. This is Sega screw up #87, the fact that this 3rd person mode was hidden in the final game. This 3rd person mode is a pure tech demo for the Dreamcast, something to really show off the Dreamcast capabilities at a time when the PS2 is launching in a couple months.
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    Here are the transparencies. They might be doing Saturn style mesh transparencies, but I hope to god that isn't actually the case:



    The scoreboard is super high-res:



    I thought these poles were aluminum maps but that doesn't seem to be the case. I can't find where I remember seeing something like that:



    And this must be duplicate models motion blur:

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    But I have to be fair, I've read in this topic that Dreamcast can not only run PS2 games but it can improve them, which is not true, is not true that Dreamcast beats PS2 in texture in every game because even high quality games like HeadHunter are better on PS2, Street Fighter 3 and many others, this texture advantage is a myth that keeps on repeating as I said metal textures are better on ps2, textures with lighiting effects are better plus other capabilities like grass, dust particles and water effects that replace textures and allow you to create complex games.
    But what about the last type of textures? They're called "ordinary textures" and they're almost always better on Dreamcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I understand that the colors of this game is not a limitation but an artistic choice, inconsistent textures we can find in any game.
    Dude, theres no way they'd purposely gimp this game for artistic purposes. You don't think this game would've looked better if they were even using 6-bit(64 colours) textures(if the PS2 can use textures of that bit-depth)?

    I think the style they went for with Ratchet and Clank worked perfect, the super high polycounts and low colour textures. It gave the Ratchet and Clank games a very distinct look thats easily recognizable.



    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Well, 360 has a better ram situation than PS3. 512MB unified then the GPU had 10MB EDram. PS3 has a split pool of 512 and only half of it for games. PS3 has a better CPU and larger disc space with Blu ray while 360 was stuck with DVD9. Blue Dragon is 3 discs. Lost Odyssey is 4. When MGS4 released on PS3, for years people port begged it to come to 360. MHS4 had uncompressed audio and there was that photoshopped picture as a joke where the 360 version was on 10-15 discs. That being said I agree with your post overall and your point but it does seem the myth of PS3 way outclassing 360 still has not fully died yet. The biggest advantage PS3 had tho was Blu Ray.
    The unified RAM is about programming convenience, its not a factor of the system's power.

    Also one of the main reasons people say the PS2 is more powerful than the Dreamcast, is because of the huge FLOP difference, 1.4 GFLOPS vs 5.6 GFLOPS. You see the same thing with 360 vs PS3, I think its 70 GFLOPS vs 200 GFLOPS.

    IGN did a big 360 vs PS3 comparison if you wanna read more about this.
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