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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Eh, I feel at some point it stops being a port and just a remake for that hardware. Witcher 3 is still the same game. VF2 on Genesis is not. Then again hardware was more unique then so maybe a grey area. I dunno.
    But doesn't Virtua Fighter 2 on Genesis still have all the same characters and backgrounds? I've never played the game

    Also my next Dreamcast documentation is gonna be a significant one. I don't think any of you thought this game had these numbers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Virtua Striker 2 (1999, DC)

    Average: 1.2 million polygons per second


    Heres another Genki port, and no surprise that this game runs at the same polycounts as other Genki ports and games(Virtua Fighter 3TB = 1.3 million PPS, Daytona USA 2001 = 1.3 million PPS, Tokyo Xtreme Racer 2 = 800,000 to 1.2 million PPS). This game does seem kinda bare-bones, but doesn't seem as bad as the ratings it got.
    Genki working their magic. At the time this came out (and for a while after) they wasn't a football game that could touch it graphically and all at a lovely 60 fps. I also loved how the lighting would change dependant on what time of day you were playing it
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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post

    Or that Virtua Fighter 2 port on the Genesis.
    Or Virtua Fighter on the Game Gear. I mean we had R-Type on the Gameboy, SF Alpha III, Tony Hawk's 2 on the GBA, Quake 2 on the PS and Daikatana on the Gameboy Color LOL
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  4. #1939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    SEGA AMD, I like how like a skilled politician, you excluded parts of what people to, to suit one's agender. I not only talked of PSP versions but a DS version and a GTA on the PC. The PC version of GTA III comes on 2 CD ROMs, which doesn't give much more space, than a GD Rom Disc and I think the PC file size isn't more than a Gigabyte for GTA 3 on the PC; This is before one would look at compressing the size via fewer raio stations, the audio quality ECT. You want to list the tech spec's of a Nintendo DS ? and how much RAM that have yet it played host to GTA Chinatown.
    So I would put to you GTA 3 would be possible on the DC with cuts and changes...

    What you also seem not to take into account is the likes of GTA 3 didn't come out until 2001, which by that time the DC was dead. So at the time of the DC was a going concern, few developers had the skill set to design an open-world game, much less know what a sandbox game was.
    Games like Driver 2 (which even the PS could run) , Nomad Soul, Shenmue were taking the 1st primitive steps into that sort of style. Like most 1st steps, it's primitive and basic but allows one to run later on in life
    Again, any game can run on any system but the problem will always be the quality....

    I posted on another follow and repeat here, there is not a single open world game where GCN runs better than ps2 and there is no GCN exclusive that is open world, this is because the machine was not made for it, console lasted from 2001 to 2007.

    I think unreal is a fairer comparison, I say that because they both came from the PC and maybe it's the only '' ps2 game '' (yes I know it's from the PC) that Dreamcast received port on, for example Quake 3, before of all the orginal version is that of PC/DC, so Unreal PC/PS2, I used Unreal Tournament only to exemplify the relationship between RAM and Frames Rate, as noted, in the most open stages Dreamcast operates low as 12fps, 19fps, so it didn't get many PS2 / PC stages because it was too wide, maybe DC RAM could however, the frame rate would be unsustainable, this is indicative for GTA 3.
    PC, you know it has more technology than consoles, the game is installed on a hard drive, has much larger memory, no need to worry about repeating files on the disk for easier reading and loading.

    this is a strong indication that the DC would be even farther on receiving the port, I would hate to play GTA 3 on DC, and see it being uglier than other system games, just like Nintendo guys don't like True Crime 2, because the downgrade to make the game fit on the smaller disk was huge. (and even if they say that the port was done in a hurry, there are many developers saying that the machine was not made for this kind of game and the evidence is plenty: canceled games, massive downgrade open world games, no GCN open world exclusive game was made).
    6 years life cycle in the market.

    Edit: interview with producer GTA 3.

    ''IGN: How technically difficult was it for you to create Grand Theft Auto III on PlayStation 2?

    Les: With the variation on pedestrians, cars and maps, one of the hardest tasks was squeezing Grand Theft Auto III into 32 megabytes. Also with the amount of action that takes place, speed was an issue. A lot of time was spent optimizing memory and speed to get every ounce of power from the PS2.''

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/10...as-les-benzies
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 09-03-2019 at 02:41 PM.

  5. #1940
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Like a Burnout 3 on Dreamcast would have 3/8ths the polycounts, no motion blur, and no particle effects.

    Also you've probably seen The Witcher 3 port on Switch. Its hardcore gimped, I don't know how anyone could be satisfied with playing it.
    in other words would not be a legitimate Burnout 3
    I agree with you, just receiving Port is no use, (if the look is very gimped) unless it is a very important game strategically.
    receiving certain games turns out to be negative publicity for the console itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I posted on another follow and repeat here, there is not a single open world game where GCN runs better than ps2 and there is no GCN exclusive that is open world, this is because the machine was not made for it, console lasted from 2001 to 2007..
    I'm not saying that at all. I simply said I don't see any major reason why the DC couldn't handle a half-decent version of GTA III. It could handle the polygons, it had just about enough disc space and I'm sure with cuts here and there, it had enough system Ram to handle quite a lot of the game logic and AI. The latter GTA games I wouldn't even try and make out the DC could pull it off and I would say the Cube could have handled the GTA III too

    I think unreal is a fairer comparison, I say that because they both came from the PC and maybe it's the only '' ps2 game '
    I wouldn't. The PS2 version of Unreal Tournament was made by the game and engine developer and the DC version handed out to Secret level. If both ports were handled by Epic it would be a much fairer comparison IMO. People can always use a port to suit their agender. I mean the PS2 ports of Grandia II, Code Veronica or Maxen X (which run worse on the PS2) were hardly PS2 the finest hour. There are lots of variables when it comes to ports.
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  7. #1942
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But doesn't Virtua Fighter 2 on Genesis still have all the same characters and backgrounds? I've never played the game

    Also my next Dreamcast documentation is gonna be a significant one. I don't think any of you thought this game had these numbers.
    As I recall it was a still image with parallax scrolling in the background.



    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    As I recall it was a still image with parallax scrolling in the background.
    Other than the title and character selection screen it doesn't use many of the same assets, it's not like they used the models to make pre-rendered Genesis sprites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_rVnnEe99Q

    A few of the background objects look pretty similar though.

    My favorite part is Pai saying "you're too slow" on the Genesis while the Saturn has a loading screen.
    Last edited by axel; 09-03-2019 at 02:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    In 2000/3 If SEGA had the dosh, we would have seen a DC 2. It would have been based on NA@MI 2 tech, which would have been fab for SEGA fans and its consumer teams and allowed for full BC with all DC games
    LOL thats a terrible idea, not to mention expensive, impractical and totally unnecessary. The Naomi2 is essentially 2 DCs stuck together with extra RAM and a separate T&L chip, I would wager the NGC would still destroy it in the graphics dept, let alone the Xbox.A system like that in the home would made the Saturn look practical and cheap by comparison. Not to mention the time frame ----- 2000-2003? what are you smoking? Why would Sega need to upgrade so soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    The GameCube and OG Xbox are hideous beyond belief. The OG Xbox hardware is so hideous that I refuse to own it. A lime green 80 lb console.The 360 is the best looking HD console in existence.
    The OG Xbox might be big and heavy, but refusing to own it means you're likely missing out on it's games, unless you're playing them on an Xbox360.Since you are the "Certified F-Zero GX fanboy" you should probably check out Quantum Redshift (Unless you've already played it ..lol). Its made by the same guys that made Wipeout XL but making full use of the Xbox


    Last edited by stu; 09-04-2019 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    LOL thats a terrible idea, not to mention expensive, impractical and totally unnecessary. The Naomi2 is essentially 2 DCs stuck together with extra RAM and a separate T&L chip, I would wager the NGC would still destroy it in the graphics dept, let alone the Xbox.A system like that in the home would made the Saturn look practical and cheap by comparison. Not to mention the time frame ----- 2000-2003? what are you smoking? Why would Sega need to upgrade so soon?The OG Xbox might be big and heavy, but refusing to own it means you're likely missing out on it's games, unless you're playing them on an Xbox360.Since you are the "Certified F-Zero GX fanboy" you should probably check out Quantum Redshift (Unless you've already played it ..lol). Its made by the same guys that made Wipeout XL but making full use of the Xbox
    I don't think it's necessarily that bad of an idea, the Naomi hardware is made to be scaled and using the architecture for a console would save R&D costs. The Wii is basically GC+ and it did very well. VF4 on the Naomi 2 looks way better than the PS2 port. I do agree with you though the time frame would have to be later, maybe 2005 or so. It wouldn't be on par with a PS3 but as Nintendo has shown specs aren't everything.

    Either way I just wish Sega had found a way to keep things going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I don't think it's necessarily that bad of an idea, the Naomi hardware is made to be scaled and using the architecture for a console would save R&D costs. The Wii is basically GC+ and it did very well. VF4 on the Naomi 2 looks way better than the PS2 port. I do agree with you though the time frame would have to be later, maybe 2005 or so. It wouldn't be on par with a PS3 but as Nintendo has shown specs aren't everything.

    Either way I just wish Sega had found a way to keep things going.
    The Wii was successful thanks solely to the motion control gimmick, hardware wise it is a joke - nothing more than a clock speed boosted NGC. I'm sure there are probably millions of Wiis out there that only ever had Wii Sports on them.
    Nintendo were just too cheap to invest in new hardware, they even recycled the same (now) ancient CPU a 3rd time with the Wii U - which we all know was an epic failure

    A Naomi 2 powered console in 2005 would be even more under powered than the Wii was in 2006.
    The whole point of the Naomi was to leverage the Dreamcast chipset in the arcades, like Sony and Namco did with the Playstation/System 11, and make a cheap but powerful arcade hardware to replace the extremely expensive dedicated arcade boards like Model 3, not the other way round.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    LOL thats a terrible idea, not to mention expensive, impractical and totally unnecessary. The Naomi2 is essentially 2 DCs stuck together with extra RAM and a separate T&L chip, I would wager the NGC would still destroy it in the graphics dept, let alone the Xbox.A system like that in the home would made the Saturn look practical and cheap by comparison. Not to mention the time frame ----- 2000-2003? what are you smoking?
    I don't smoke and like to live in the real world, the world where SEGA was always smaller to the other corps and even if the DC did well, the funds would be limited. SEGA would not be able to spend the billions on R&D that Nintendo or M$ or SONY could, where they either paid billions to develope their own GPU or paid the likes of AMD/NVidia billions to develope one for them .MS is said to have spent billions alone on R&D with the XBox (more than SEGA's net worth) SEGA always had to use off the shelves and established parts to help make the bulk of its consoles, NA@MI was designed to be scaled and 2001 would mean the DC had been on sale for 4 years (4 to 5 years was when corps looked to move back then) A NAM@I II based DC II would still be very powerful, especially for lighting, it would allow full BC with the DC and where SEGA's Arcade Teams would again be allowed to work on Arcade and then console versions using pretty much the same tech, at the time of PSO on the DC, SEGA had already be able to shrink down the DC chipset to a system on chip combining the GPU and CPU to one chip so I would have imagine SEGA wou;d have looked to bring that sort of cost savings to a DC II

    Otherwise, I would have liked to seen SEGA just go 100% with the OG Xbox.
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 09-04-2019 at 02:18 AM.
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  13. #1948
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    The OG Xbox might be big and heavy, but refusing to own it means you're likely missing out on it's games, unless you're playing them on an Xbox360.
    The OG Xbox did look hideous and used a hideous colour black too (The Crystal Xbox looked so much nicer). In its favour though, it was both extremely quite and reliable (other than Thomson DVD drives)I would leave my OG Xbox on for hours on end and not really notice it.

    It was for me the console of that gen, with the best games and the best looking and sounding games of that generation too. Games like Orta, SEGA GT 2002, Oddworld Stranger, Conkers, O.TO.GI II Ect just looked outstanding
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  14. #1949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Honestly, whatever you're smoking, pass it to me and then I'll pass it to Segata.

    First off, if they released a upgraded Dreamcast, then they would be repeating the same mistake they've made since the 80s, which is ditching hardware too fast. By that time they probably learned that they gotta stick with what they released.

    Secondly, it would be completely unnecessary. The Dreamcast couldn't run every 6th-gen muiltplat, but theres still tons that could've been ported to the Dreamcast if it stayed alive. It wouldn't be until 2004 where most muiltiplats would be technically impossible on Dreamcast.

    What they could've done though, was release a redesigned Dreamcast with updated controllers, updated memory card space, Mil-CD support removed, and different console design.
    OK you have a point that SEGA maybe should have stuck with the same DC, if they were going to continue in the console business. Just not to ditch it too fast.

    Also good point that DC still had plenty of potential for amazing games, after its supported lifetime ended, and probably could handle most multiplats till around '04, apparently. (IDK myself, but you said that, so I'll believe you on that.)

    When I mentioned an upgraded DC, it's mainly just acknowledging the obvious that the DC was soon overpowered by its competition... Everyone's saying the PS2 had way more polygons, and AFAIK the Xbox was the most powerful machine of all.

    So I figured the DC would need an upgrade, if SEGA were to continue competing in home consoles, against PS2 and Xbox. But, maybe not, since u raised good points that the DC could have competed for some years more, without an upgrade.

    I'm glad u agree with the idea of remodeled DC controllers at least lol. And memory card space, etc.

    I actually think PS2 won that era MOSTLY because it doubled as a DVD player, at a time when a DVD player cost around the same as a PS2. (That plus its huge library of 3rd party games.) So really I don't think any console could have beaten the PS2, unless it also played DVD's, too. (Apparently Xbox can play movies, if u buy a kit for that, but PS2 still wins for being the console that's already an easy DVD player.)

    So even if SEGA did hang in there with the original DC (maybe some small upgrades for controllers, etc.), even then SEGA would eventually be hopeless in home console competition, and outspent by its larger competitors, who could do things like throw in DVD players etc

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecco View Post

    I actually think PS2 won that era MOSTLY because it doubled as a DVD player, at a time when a DVD player cost around the same as a PS2.
    You could say that a little for Japan, where DVD films sales took off, but I did see quite the same impact in the West with the PS2 launch. SONY won the hype war plain and simple. The system was so powerful you had countries like Iraq stockpiling them LOL, it could offer Toy Story CG in real-time, it could give games emotion Ect, Ect. For me what really won it for SONY and the PS2 was Metal Gear Solid 2 E3 2000 Trailer; that looked so far and above anything else and made all DC games look quite simple in comparison. That the day for me, the DC dream died and SEGA was killed.

    I do think stuff like Power and DVD are a bit of a cop-out myself. The Xbox was a DVD player, it had the power to make PS2 games look like nothing in comparison, it had uncle Bill cheque book and it barley sold double that of the DC. The Master System was much more powerful than the NES and it got killed in sales, the PSP and Vita were way more powerful than Nintendo's offerings. SONY just did most things right, or well enough and did not make a fatal screw up in one area and had the best 3rd party, retail support out there.
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