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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2446
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    Moving on , Draconus cult of the wyrm. A hack and slash adventure on the dreamcast. Treyarch thought it would be neat to push the dreamcast to the absolute limit and told their artist to pump it full of polygons and make large maps. In the end that didnt work and it had to be massively downgraded and missed their deadline. Though rough looking it had its moments polygon wise, makes you wonder what the original models would have looked like before the downgrade. On a real dreamcast the game runs like 20 fps to 60 fps , it has an unlocked framerate but for clarity ill just label this one 30 fps because it fluctuates too much.

    I am using a beta/unfinished copy as it has level select. Pushes quite a bit of polygons in bursts.
    Forest stage: 46,349 tris per frame x 30 fps = 1.3 million polygons per second.



    Undead fortress: 51,057 tris per frame x 30 fps = 1.5 million polygons per second.


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    For segaAMD the mud pit. Its quite the pretty game but not anything high poly.

    Rumble roses ps2 mud pit : 31,060 tris per frame x 60 fps = 1.8 million polygons per second. For Yharnamresident: Look at the triangle count now times it by 3 = 93,180, the exact vert amount. The exporter does seperate triangle by triangle instead of grouping it triangle strips, more proof.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Sigh you ignore most of what I say. I explained up there what exactly the ps2 obj capture is doing I'll give you an example : pride fc 43,633 Tris captured x 3 vertex = 130,899 vertex. The ps2 captures vertex count is not a mystery and it doesn't take a genius to figure that it was programmed to spit out individual triangle.

    The only reason the Dreamcast gives different number is due to the capture method. It's trying to imitate triangles strips
    I did read what you said and you explained the situation well, my concern is about which is most accurate. Is the game using triangle strips on a real console? Then thats the most accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Why are you even mentioning the GameCube version? The GameCube version is super amazing but it's the PC version who's a dumbed down version of a version that was already dumbed down that could run on the DC.
    Well so much discussion about the game, might as well bring it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I did read what you said and you explained the situation well, my concern is about which is most accurate. Is the game using triangle strips on a real console? Then thats the most accurate.

    Well so much discussion about the game, might as well bring it up.
    Hmm. Triangle strip were of course used on the console. Flawed logic though, even you said it yourself zero gs gives dead on figures same as the fixed obj dumps. Triangle count is accurate in that regard even if vertex isn't. I mean if the way the triangles were stored is an issue then sticking to zerogs is your ONLY choice. S

    Btw some obj dumps can't be fixed like res4, clock tower 3 , ah my goddess and some others so zerogs is the only way to view it accurately.

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    Yes it is a PS2 game, 5:55


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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Yes it is a PS2 game, 5:55

    And if you remove all bell whistles it can be down ported(which was my point with res4). I can see this running similar on the DC. Maybe with less aliasing. Might be worth extracting on psp to see feasibility.
    Edit: no wonder it looks good it was made by Melbourne house devs of LeMans 24 and transformer Armada ps2

    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 11-06-2019 at 10:51 AM.

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    With this forum being so slow, I gotta quote people a different way.

    Hmm. Triangle strip were of course used on the console. Flawed logic though, even you said it yourself zero gs gives dead on figures same as the fixed obj dumps. Triangle count is accurate in that regard even if vertex isn't. I mean if the way the triangles were stored is an issue then sticking to zerogs is your ONLY choice. S

    Btw some obj dumps can't be fixed like res4, clock tower 3 , ah my goddess and some others so zerogs is the only way to view it accurately.
    Its not a huge issue. It is most optimal if the polycounts and vertice counts were the same as what you see on a real console, but with the PS2 being so hard to emulate this is close enough.
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    Battle Gear 2 (2001, PS2)

    Average = 800,000 polygons per second


    The fascinating thing about this game, is it was originally released for a very early 6th gen arcade board(Taito Type Zero). It was then ported to the PS2 as essentially an exact port. So while playing this game, you can kinda feel what its like to play this super obscure arcade board. This game has very good polygon allocation. The cars have decent polycounts and 3D wheels, while theres still roadside detail, all running at under 15000 polygons.




    A couple cars on-screen with tons of roadside detail. 950,000 PPS




    2 cars on-screen. 600,000 PPS




    2 cars on-screen with valley in background. 600,000 PPS




    1.05 million PPS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    And if you remove all bell whistles it can be down ported(which was my point with res4). I can see this running similar on the DC. Maybe with less aliasing. Might be worth extracting on psp to see feasibility.
    Edit: no wonder it looks good it was made by Melbourne house devs of LeMans 24 and transformer Armada ps2
    Melbourne House was among the best developers of the sixth generation, I can't see this game on Dreamcast even though polygonal frame counting is possible, I feel that Dreamcast was made for very specific games while ps2 and psp were made for a wider range of games. open worlds and others.
    Also I need to bring the memory that the PSP media has 50% more capacity than the GD rom and the PSP has 32Mib Ram (can you imagine how many cuts and adaptations need to be made?) so, PS2 ports are possible on it due the ram, while even on machines considered stronger, like GCN by For example, some ports aren't viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Melbourne House was among the best developers of the sixth generation, I can't see this game on Dreamcast even though polygonal frame counting is possible, I feel that Dreamcast was made for very specific games while ps2 and psp were made for a wider range of games. open worlds and others.
    Also I need to bring the memory that the PSP media has 50% more capacity than the GD rom and the PSP has 32Mib Ram (can you imagine how many cuts and adaptations need to be made?) so, PS2 ports are possible on it due the ram, while even on machines considered stronger, like GCN by For example, some ports aren't viable.
    Psp doesn't have full use of it's 32mb ram since it had to run an os, you are aware of that? If I remember right it only had 24 mb available to apps.Unless you're talking about later models but even then it's irrelevant because it had to maintain compatibility. The psp discs was not 50% , don't remember the extact amount but it's under 2gb (1.7gb?)while gd ROM is 1.2 gb. Psp might actually be worse at streaming stuff from it's disc than Dreamcast since it drains battery and some games like crazy taxi psp show unsteady framerate while streaming from psp disc, why do u think install to memory stick was a thing. Psp is indeed more powerful but it's bogged down by lowering performance for battery life and running a background os lowring to just slightly better than the DC. Not to mention all Dreamcast ports to psp had cutdown graphics and increased loading times, that doesn't scream Superior.

    While a Homebrew port of 4x4 jam a psp mini port to the Dreamcast shows psp stuff can indeed run on DC. I remember extracting that game on psp. Ran like 30k tris per frame @ 60 fps on psp. That's no slouch.

    The Dreamcast technically wasnt around long enough to see those open world type games unfortunately.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 11-09-2019 at 01:33 AM.

  11. #2456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Battle Gear 2 (2001, PS2)

    Average = 800,000 polygons per second


    The fascinating thing about this game, is it was originally released for a very early 6th gen arcade board(Taito Type Zero). It was then ported to the PS2 as essentially an exact port. So while playing this game, you can kinda feel what its like to play this super obscure arcade board. This game has very good polygon allocation. The cars have decent polycounts and 3D wheels, while theres still roadside detail, all running at under 15000 polygons.




    A couple cars on-screen with tons of roadside detail. 950,000 PPS




    2 cars on-screen. 600,000 PPS




    2 cars on-screen with valley in background. 600,000 PPS




    1.05 million PPS
    It's funny you mention this game. I have part 3. This game is the successor to one my fav ps1 games, side by side. Part 3 look infinitely better, I'll have to check it out. Part 3 uses a lot multitexture for real time reflection on cars and speculars on the streets.

    Looks like part 2 could have been on the Dreamcast. Another game that runs around 18k per frame @ 60 fps is Tokyo Xtreme racer zero on the ps2. The polygon count might low but it uses tons of motion blur and have vastly improved lighting and shadows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    It's funny you mention this game. I have part 3. This game is the successor to one my fav ps1 games, side by side. Part 3 look infinitely better, I'll have to check it out. Part 3 uses a lot multitexture for real time reflection on cars and speculars on the streets.

    Looks like part 2 could have been on the Dreamcast. Another game that runs around 18k per frame @ 60 fps is Tokyo Xtreme racer zero on the ps2. The polygon count might low but it uses tons of motion blur and have vastly improved lighting and shadows.
    Battle Gear 3 was also an arcade port. Of course this doesn't mean much once you learn the arcade board had the same hardware as the PS2.

    Cloofoofoo I thought of a good question. Whats the most common post-processing effect you've seen on the Dreamcast? Is it motion blur?
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    it was good that you mentioned 4x4 Jam, it reminded me of another PS2 and DC game, 4x4 Evolution, worth measuring the polygonal count of both, according to reviews the ps2 version has better textures, stages, shadows, maybe more polygons, interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it was good that you mentioned 4x4 Jam, it reminded me of another PS2 and DC game, 4x4 Evolution, worth measuring the polygonal count of both, according to reviews the ps2 version has better textures, stages, shadows, maybe more polygons, interesting
    Bad comparison again. They went with Windows ce on the Dreamcast. They did so because the Dreamcast version uses online functionality that still works to this day.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 11-09-2019 at 10:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Battle Gear 3 was also an arcade port. Of course this doesn't mean much once you learn the arcade board had the same hardware as the PS2.

    Cloofoofoo I thought of a good question. Whats the most common post-processing effect you've seen on the Dreamcast? Is it motion blur?
    Motion blur is actually very rare, I guess keeping a transparent quad that covers the screen destroys the filllrate. The most common post effect on the DC is actually Crossfade. Certain sega devs abused it like crazy and so did some third party. I don't remember where I read this, might have been on the sdk but the Dreamcast has a built-in function for cross-fades odd enough. Probably not the effect you wanted to hear huh.

    It still means a lot for battle gear 3, that game is gorgeous. Really shows off what the ps2 can do. On another note super dragon Ball z ps2 game runs at 10k to 19k Tris per frame , since the game is cell shaded it uses backface Culling(alot) probably to save on fillrate.

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