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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Here are the transparencies. They might be doing Saturn style mesh transparencies, but I hope to god that isn't actually the case:



    The scoreboard is super high-res:



    I thought these poles were aluminum maps but that doesn't seem to be the case. I can't find where I remember seeing something like that:



    And this must be duplicate models motion blur:

    Hate to disappoint you but the fence texture is punch through polygon type which the DC was hard wired to process nearly as fast as opaque polygons(basically instead of real transparency the pixel is either completely opaque or it's completely transparent, no in between levels). This works great for things like fences because the metal parts are opaque and the holes in between are completely transparent as there isn't a need for it to be semi transparent. Still it's a pretty looking game. The downgraded ps2 version was a real bummer, technically it isnt even port but a remake... For the worse.

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    MGS2 has historically been the game that took a lot of sales out of Dreamcast, the textures in this game are so designed for PS2 hardware that not even the xbox version can replicate with 100% perfection, obviously xbox can make much better textures, in this image where there are crystal bowls the dreamcast could not replicate, we have textures depicting wood, leather and marble, plus light effects such as the hallway image, extended shadows, and cutscenes that are made in real time using console hardware in the image where shows one leg has been taken from a custcene to show skin textures. I honestly think RECV can't beat this game in graphic quality and texture quality.



    Last edited by SegaAMD; 12-08-2019 at 10:19 PM.

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    Look at all that blur. Washed out. Bloom. MGS2 was just never that impressive looking to me. Looks like it was made out of clay.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    The unified RAM is about programming convenience, its not a factor of the system's power.
    It does become a factor if you need to do system ram to video ram transfers, which are so slow on the PS3 that the dev docs had a "(no typo)" remark about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But what about the last type of textures? They're called "ordinary textures" and they're almost always better on Dreamcast.

    Dude, theres no way they'd purposely gimp this game for artistic purposes. You don't think this game would've looked better if they were even using 6-bit(64 colours) textures(if the PS2 can use textures of that bit-depth)?

    I think the style they went for with Ratchet and Clank worked perfect, the super high polycounts and low colour textures. It gave the Ratchet and Clank games a very distinct look thats easily recognizable.

    .
    I think it's really artistic because airblade was released before, makes more polygons and has more variety of textures, more colour.

    What do you mean by ordinary textures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Look at all that blur. Washed out. Bloom. MGS2 was just never that impressive looking to me. Looks like it was made out of clay.
    It certainly wasnt pushing any new polygon count on the characters at least, texture wise muddy at best but that could have been somewhat intentional( i say somewhat because iam sure they would have liked higher rez+ color depth,though the overall look was muted.). They were better modelers though, at least where to distribute them on the mesh. Despite something looking better doesnt mean its higher poly. The cutscene model for guts from sword of the berserk(dc) is almost on par with raiden from mgs 2 substance while the cutscene model for claire in code veronica is higher polygon than raiden. This is more a comparative of art styles than technical.

    Raiden from mgs2 : 3,357 tris


    Gust from sword of the berserk dc : 3,193 tris( not weapons or cape, could be higher with)


    Claire redfield code veronica x : 3,758 tris.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 12-09-2019 at 04:34 PM.

  7. #2617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Hate to disappoint you but the fence texture is punch through polygon type which the DC was hard wired to process nearly as fast as opaque polygons(basically instead of real transparency the pixel is either completely opaque or it's completely transparent, no in between levels). This works great for things like fences because the metal parts are opaque and the holes in between are completely transparent as there isn't a need for it to be semi transparent. Still it's a pretty looking game. The downgraded ps2 version was a real bummer, technically it isnt even port but a remake... For the worse.
    What you are describing sounds like mesh transparency. Well they did a good job of fooling me even though I was playing on a HDTV.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    MGS2 has historically been the game that took a lot of sales out of Dreamcast, the textures in this game are so designed for PS2 hardware that not even the xbox version can replicate with 100% perfection, obviously xbox can make much better textures, in this image where there are crystal bowls the dreamcast could not replicate, we have textures depicting wood, leather and marble, plus light effects such as the hallway image, extended shadows, and cutscenes that are made in real time using console hardware in the image where shows one leg has been taken from a custcene to show skin textures. I honestly think RECV can't beat this game in graphic quality and texture quality.
    Well I think it has really good graphics. Its in one of the game genres that I have the least interest in, but I can recognize they actually tried to get some performance out of the PS2.

    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    It does become a factor if you need to do system ram to video ram transfers, which are so slow on the PS3 that the dev docs had a "(no typo)" remark about it.
    So, design the game so that doesn't have to be done often. Play to a console's strengths. Clearly unified RAM is the way to go since thats how every console does it nowadays, but its mostly about programming convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    What do you mean by ordinary textures?
    Just ordinary bitmap textures, used mostly for ground surfaces or wall surfaces. Like the road surface in racing games or the mountain textures in adventure games. Also if you like talking about good textures in PS2 games, look at Midnight Club II. It uses super good road textures that gives you Dreamcast vibes.
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    Also I know I've been a heavy contributor in this thread, but in February is when I gotta take a year-long break. At that point I have to start getting ready for moving.

    So I really gotta quit getting sidetracked and focus on my backlog and to-do list of posts to create.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    What you are describing sounds like mesh transparency. Well they did a good job of fooling me even though I was playing on a HDTV.

    Well I think it has really good graphics. Its in one of the game genres that I have the least interest in, but I can recognize they actually tried to get some performance out of the PS2.

    So, design the game so that doesn't have to be done often. Play to a console's strengths. Clearly unified RAM is the way to go since thats how every console does it nowadays, but its mostly about programming convenience.

    Just ordinary bitmap textures, used mostly for ground surfaces or wall surfaces. Like the road surface in racing games or the mountain textures in adventure games. Also if you like talking about good textures in PS2 games, look at Midnight Club II. It uses super good road textures that gives you Dreamcast vibes.
    It's a type of transparency but it's 1 bit for transparency(rgba5551), meaning either nothing(fully transparent) or fully opaque. For the DC it runs as fast as opaque, that's why I said fur like shadow of Colossus should be even faster/easier to process than ps2 I suspect.

    I think if your constantly copying things over different memorie banks yout eating up the bandwidth on those functions but I dunno how the PS3 works nor do I care much for it.

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    So I was researching Code Veronica X, I automatically thought that meant the PS2 port, but Wikipedia says it was also released for the Dreamcast. Does this mean theres a version of Code Veronica with even better graphics on the Dreamcast?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So I was researching Code Veronica X, I automatically thought that meant the PS2 port, but Wikipedia says it was also released for the Dreamcast. Does this mean theres a version of Code Veronica with even better graphics on the Dreamcast?
    The one you know as code Veronica x on ps2 and GameCube was released first as code Veronica complete ( same as ps2)in Japan on the Dreamcast with updated model for Steve and more cutscenes. To be clear if you played code Veronica x on ps2 then you played code Veronica complete on DC, the only difference being the battle game is unlocked from the get go on the DC and color aren't as banded and washed out like ps2 version.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; Yesterday at 08:14 AM.

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    Good transparency effects in Sonic Adventure on Eggman's ship. On the deck itself. Sonic Adventure 2 with the yellow chaos emerald. Eggman's vehicle window. Shenmue II in Hong Kong with window displays.



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    So my next comparison is very interesting.Since everyone seems to bring this game up alot I looked into it. Metal gear solid 2 ps2 vs metal gear solid 2 pc. I didnt do indepth but I think I got enough to get an idea of it. So far on pc I managed toget it with nothing clipped , when looking as the big shell from afar in a cutscene it went up to 110K triangles in the frame for pc(but thats capturing everything, even the unseen stuff), it would be interesting to see how the ps2 handles/clips that but i have not enough interest in it.Not doing the big shell though, just the tanker with snake on it. The ps2 does do viewport clipping but its not aggressive and the characters are intact, no backface culling.
    On ps2 its a game that runs at a fluctuating framerate but ill cut it some slack and consider it 60fps. After looking how it runs and the effect off you can take all framebuffer effects off on pc, I wouldnt say its impossible to run it on dc as long as its locked to 30fps(or 20fps like the 3ds version of metalgear solid 3 lol) and all framebuffer effects off. To be honest the prologue at least doesnt seem to out of reach.

    The very beginning on the tanker with snake : 24,904 tris per frame x 60 fps = 1.5mpps


    Same scene , also on ps2 but dumped as .obl : 18,166 tris per frame x 60 fps = 1mpps


    Now the same scene on PC, it captures everything:37,994 tris per frame x 60 fps = 2.2 mpps


    Inside the ship on the ps2. The game uses cheap reflections( the whole stage and characters are copied and flipped upside down while the floor is made transparent depending on the camera angle: 18,469 tris per frame x 60 fps = 1.1mpps


    Also on ps2 , same scene captured again for obj dump : 20,983 x 60 = 1.2mpps


    Same scene on the pc: 43,061 tris per frame x 60 fps = 2.6mpps.

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