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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Sure. I've never seen Mazaz in motion, but the screenshots of the game looked good and right up there with HOTD II. I just got the impression Konami never really tried on the Saturn or DC and seemed unhappy that SEGA's Model 3 won over Cobra despite Konami (and even EDGE mag at one stage) saying Model 3 was dead, thanks to Coba 3 million-plus polygons.

    Maybe SEGA was guilty of it too in some part. Was never impressed with SEGA's PS2 games graphically or SEGA Vampire Night running on the PS2 board in the Arcades
    It looks better than house of the dead 2. Thats not a fair comparison though, from what i understand house of the dead 2 was made for a version of naomi that wasnt as powerful as the version that later used for most games.

    Well the cobra hardware seemed to have been overhyped. It seems it cant really do that much over 1mpps. Even the first version of model 3 will tear it apart, it does 1 million quads(2 million triangles). Forget the final version which pretty much reaches ps2 levels of geometry ( does like 2 million quads, 4 million triangles with all its stuff on.) But fighting bujutsu was something the dc could have done easily done would have gotten konami right up there with soul calibur.

    Are you crazy? Right after the dc died they released jet set radio future, virtua fighter 4, space channel 5 part 2, sonic adaventure 2 battle, gunvalkyrie,rez, sega gt 2 online, shinobi, panzer dragoon orta and more. Their output was superb spread across multiple consoles , i would argue better that what they offered the dc but died down as the years went by. Iam guess these titles didnt sell well and the Restructering was the final nail in that coffin.

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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    How about Evil twin on DC vs PS2? ANy notable differences?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    It looks better than house of the dead 2. Thats not a fair comparison though, from what i understand house of the dead 2 was made for a version of naomi that wasnt as powerful as the version that later used for most games.
    I never read about the NA@MI spec being improved for latter games TBH



    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Are you crazy? Right after the dc died they released jet set radio future, virtua fighter 4, space channel 5 part 2, sonic adaventure 2 battle, gunvalkyrie,rez, sega gt 2 online, shinobi, panzer dragoon orta and more. Their output was superb spread across multiple consoles , i would argue better that what they offered the dc but died down as the years went by. Iam guess these titles didnt sell well and the Restructering was the final nail in that coffin.
    I'm on about the PS2. SEGA was amazing on the XBox and Cube, not that hot on the PS2 graphic wise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I never read about the NA@MI spec being improved for latter games TBH





    I'm on about the PS2. SEGA was amazing on the XBox and Cube, not that hot on the PS2 graphic wise.
    It wasnt but the house of the dead 2 originally ran on a prototype naomi if i remember right that wasnt quite up to spec with the finished one. I am not sure if youre aware but a standard naomi uses very similar part(cpu, gpu) than a dreamcast but with double the ram. The biggest difference is the gpu, it uses an updated powervr2dc that has double the performance/fillrate. This was brought up multiple times when they started emulating naomi and realized it had a different revision of the same gpu that the dc had. Its a shame they didnt just go with that version on the dc itself. The arcade machine handling was just poor, making so many sh4 based arcade machines was a bad choice.

    True they werent super awesome on the ps2 but to be fair the xbox and gamecube were better systems. I thought vampire night or whatever its called was a very nice looking game.

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    So has anyone here read the Read Only Memories of the Dreamcast Collected Works? It has a ton of interviews and schematics of the hardware plus concepts that I'm not sure to have been seen before. I don't know if it has new info other than the new sketches and maybe schematics but I have a chapter list and point to where you want and I can take a snap.




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    Nameless One AdamL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    How about Evil twin on DC vs PS2? ANy notable differences?
    Yes, Evil Twin on the Dreamcast has significant aliasing (jaggies) and generally lower quality textures. In the PS2 version a lot of the environmental lighting is toned down/missing entirely from the Dreamcast/PC version. Otherwise they're pretty much identical minus some subtle changes.

    So the Dreamcast wins in lighting while the PS2 has the advantage in texturing and image quality - Pretty much the complete opposite of the typical Dreamcast vs. PS2 narrative.

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    Thank you. Very interesting results.



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    Evil Twin is also a PAL exclusive, and the PS2 version IIRC doesn't support 60 Hz? Correct me if I'm wrong. I've noticed that in general, almost no one in the US bothers with EU import PS2 games. I assume that's because it's a pain in the ass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    It wasnt but the house of the dead 2 originally ran on a prototype naomi if i remember right that wasnt quite up to spec with the finished one. I am not sure if youre aware but a standard naomi uses very similar part(cpu, gpu) than a dreamcast but with double the ram. The biggest difference is the gpu, it uses an updated powervr2dc that has double the performance/fillrate. This was brought up multiple times when they started emulating naomi and realized it had a different revision of the same gpu that the dc had. Its a shame they didnt just go with that version on the dc itself. The arcade machine handling was just poor, making so many sh4 based arcade machines was a bad choice.

    True they werent super awesome on the ps2 but to be fair the xbox and gamecube were better systems. I thought vampire night or whatever its called was a very nice looking game.
    I've always thought NA@MI was the same spec as the Dreamcast bar the amount of RAM, Video Ram and Sound Ram TBH and was always impressed with HOTD II gfx.
    With regards to Vampire Night, it looks nice and smooth but it had jaggies and some times basic scenery. SEGA was just so much better on the Cube or Xbox, VF 4 Evo and Yakuza II were something else mind

    I agree that SH-4 was weak for your Elite range of Arcade boards but I guess after Model 3; that while amazing was too expensive for many Arcade operators. SEGA was under huge pressure to keep costs down for its Arcade boards
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamL View Post
    Yes, Evil Twin on the Dreamcast has significant aliasing (jaggies) and generally lower quality textures. In the PS2 version a lot of the environmental lighting is toned down/missing entirely from the Dreamcast/PC version. Otherwise they're pretty much identical minus some subtle changes.

    So the Dreamcast wins in lighting while the PS2 has the advantage in texturing and image quality - Pretty much the complete opposite of the typical Dreamcast vs. PS2 narrative.
    The Dreamcast version also has a worse frame rate too
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Evil Twin is also a PAL exclusive, and the PS2 version IIRC doesn't support 60 Hz? Correct me if I'm wrong. I've noticed that in general, almost no one in the US bothers with EU import PS2 games. I assume that's because it's a pain in the ass.
    Evil Twin plays fine in NTSC. Just use a boot disc and you're good to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I've always thought NA@MI was the same spec as the Dreamcast bar the amount of RAM, Video Ram and Sound Ram TBH and was always impressed with HOTD II gfx.
    With regards to Vampire Night, it looks nice and smooth but it had jaggies and some times basic scenery. SEGA was just so much better on the Cube or Xbox, VF 4 Evo and Yakuza II were something else mind

    I agree that SH-4 was weak for your Elite range of Arcade boards but I guess after Model 3; that while amazing was too expensive for many Arcade operators. SEGA was under huge pressure to keep costs down for its Arcade boards
    It is the same spec. Sh4 + powervr 2dc. BUT naomi had an updated version of the powervr gpu that has double the fillrate. But you still have the same sh4 feeding it the geometry, youre not gonna see much of a difference because the sh4 cant even feed the powervr 2dc to its limit which is like 4mpps before it cant go any faster.
    Its funny the difference in gpu revision wasnt discovered till emulation on it had begun or at least voiced to the public. So double the fillrate+ double the main + double the vram + four times the audio ram makes naomi not too shabby. To be honest this should have been the dc base design but iam guessing memory was expensive in those years and probably the second revision of the gpu wasnt ready.

    Quote from beetledc emulator(reicast i think for android):
    Naomi was an arcade videogame system based on the Sega Dreamcast hardware. While being nearly identical in terms of architecture, it did have double the RAM and fillrate of the home console version.
    The sh4 isnt bad at all especially for the price performance and power consumption. The enitre dc is like 25 watts pulled from the wall. Graphics wasnt what killed the dc, lack of confidence did. Everyone held back their AAA games on the dc to see if it would make it despite already having it running on the dc.

    Though hypothetically imagine a dc based of sega hikaru. Might produce similar polygon counts than the dc but 1024 lights+ phong shading could have been a great selling gimmick. While expensive sure it needlessly doubled up on components. It had two sh4, two aica sound cpu, two gpus. Keep the two gpu and reduce to 1 sh4 and 1 aica and that probably would have help cost. According to the demul emu author the second sh4 isnt even used at all in nearly the games except for air trix where it was used for model streaming.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 01-07-2020 at 12:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post


    The sh4 isnt bad at all especially for the price performance and power consumption. The enitre dc is like 25 watts pulled from the wall. Graphics wasnt what killed the dc, lack of confidence did. Everyone held back their AAA games on the dc to see if it would make it despite already having it running on the dc.
    .
    DC had an amazing price to performance ratio. I was on about the Arcades and was so used to SEGA's coin up being so far ahead of the consumer based consoles. But I fully understand why SEGA had to look to use consumer based hardware to power its latest coin ups given the AM teams were so hurt with the high cost of the Model 3 board and eat into their profits, but even then its a sort of a shame that the CPU or GPU didn't run faster for better performance

    Its funny you talk of Hikaru. I remember way back when me and the boss of my Import shop, 1st saw the video of Star Wars Racer Arcade in 99 and we both thought, it was the 1st ever footage of a Model 4 game, the graphics just looked so good LOL
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    Sega Saturn and the Dreamcast were finally avenged, when we return to pages 25, 27 of this topic we see Rusty Talking about how M$ had influence at the end of the Dreamcast, after 20 years trying at last they destroyed the console market, Sony without no apparent reason according to the rumor will launch its games on the PC, the simplification of this is that, in the last analysis, the console market has become a market similar to that of Blu Ray players, the dispute now is only in games and services and the Hardware is just a many others. console market is dead.

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    Some people when comparing the Megadrive/Genesis against the SNES and the DC against the PS2 forget that they were released 2 years and 1 month and 14 months before those 2 rival consoles. If the Megadrive/Genesis had been launched in Nov 1990 instead of Oct 88 and the DC in March 00 instead of Nov 98 they probably would of outclassed the SNES & PS2 in every way. Mabee not by a huge margin but both the MD/GEN & DC would of had the edge. It seems Sega's problem was as much with timing as it was with anything else.

    What do people on here think the MD/GEN & DC would of been had they launched later? I think the DC CPU would of been up clocked to 300mhz to match the PS2 as well as 32mb main ram. The GPU prob would of been like the KYRO gpu with 16mb vram instead of 8mb. Audio ram probably would of been doubled and they probably would of used DVD's instead of GD Roms although probably not had DVD movie playback.

    I think the MD/GEN would have had a 10mhz clocked CPU with a few more audio channels and double the audio ram aswel as sprite scaling, more colours on screen from a larger colour palette aswel as larger sprite sizes with more on screen and double the vram.

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