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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #406
    Master of Shinobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Why was this thread moved here? WHY???
    Not enough "Help me to fix my Sega CD" threads in the Sega CD section to move to Tech Aid?
    Not enough "I have ideas" threads to move from Blast Processing?

    Then, out of all of those threads, this one got moved...
    And the "semmie appreciation thread" is still there.Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    It will be awesome to see what Semmie has to tell us about texture management and mipmapping!
    Just let TA handle him; i'm sure they will get along just fine.

  2. #407
    Rogue Master of Shinobi Pulstar's Avatar
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    You can talk tech gibberish for years, but there's no actual game that was developed for both platforms in tandem for direct comparison. MGS2, Ace Combat 04, GTA3 etc

  3. #408
    Ninetailed Noob Raging in the Streets KitsuneNight's Avatar
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    whats this doing here ?
    why did this get moved to here of all places ?
    Last edited by KitsuneNight; 02-01-2014 at 04:47 PM.
    Kitsune in a hat

  4. #409
    Hard Road! ESWAT Veteran Barone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pulstar View Post
    You can talk tech gibberish for years
    Sadly for you, games are developed using tech "gibberish".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bottino View Post
    And the "semmie appreciation thread" is still there.Go figure.
    Just let TA handle him; i'm sure they will get along just fine.
    Yeah, nonsense level 9999.

  5. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty View Post
    It's no problem. I'll just add my own disclaimer and kindly ask that you never, ever take what I say at face value. Always, always question what I write. I wanted to contribute to this thread (in fact, it's why I registered) because I wanted to add a bit of perspective to the discussion. I didn't want to wade in with combat boots and do the "I'm a dev and you all know nothing HAH HAH HAH" act. All of you on here seem to be very knowledgeable and even if you weren't; it would make me a reall ass-hat if I were to do that.
    Thanks for your compliments.
    I think you contributed a lot to this discussion and that's what really matters.
    Of course, any minded person will take your input as a developer-grade but not as the ultimate absolute only existent truth. Personally, I'd reiterate those same questions to any other PS2/DC developer which would appear in this discussion and take notes of their replies.
    To me it's more about learning stuff, collecting info and evidences than claiming to be the smartest ass ever.


    Quote Originally Posted by rusty View Post
    The Dreamcast and PS2 are two of the best (for differing reasons) platforms that I have worked on. I only ever did one title on the Dreamcast, and it was a game nobody remembers. But still, I'm glad that I got the chance to work on the machine. In fact....I'm sorely tempted to install PS2 Linux on my fat PS2 and write some code for it again. And maybe just install a boot loader to I can use all of the machines resources, using the sdk from ps2dev. I just wish I could do some DC coding again.
    It'd be great to see you coding for those systems again.


    Quote Originally Posted by rusty View Post
    I've been lurking around Sega-16 for quite some. I'm not going anywhere.
    Great.


    Quote Originally Posted by rusty View Post
    I've been sort of expecting and dreading this question. It doesn't bother me that you've asked, so don't worry about that. I'd just rather not reveal too much because, well, I'm in a fairly sensitive position at my current employer. When you work for one of the console manufacturers, you're sort of careful about this sort of thing.
    It's OK, no problemo. I kinda expected that answer but had to ask anyway.



    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    I'm pretty sure the tile based rendering also made it difficult to update the command list mid-frame too.
    Yep.

  6. #411
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    So, all these pages later, we basically learn that, in terms of spec and actual use of the hardware:

    XBox > GC > PS2 > DC

    with some of the "lesser" consoles being able to do things better, and worse, than the "greater" consoles.

    ...who didn't know this going in? I mean, honestly?

    I kid, of course.

    Rusty gave some great info. Very informative, even if I understand only half of it.

  7. #412
    Rogue Master of Shinobi Pulstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiffyone View Post
    So, all these pages later, we basically learn that, in terms of spec and actual use of the hardware:

    XBox > GC > PS2 > DC

    with some of the "lesser" consoles being able to do things better, and worse, than the "greater" consoles.
    Pretty much. Although Resi 4 did give us a nice opportunity to witness the weaknesses of the PS2 in contrast with the better GC (base) version.

  8. #413
    Raging in the Streets azonicrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pulstar View Post
    All this talk is immaterial. A tech demo of MGS2 running side-by-side with the PS2 version would have been enough to settle the debate. Alas, Konami never gave the DC a chance. I imagine polycount on DC would suffer considerably, but it might have had a crisper image.
    And probably better audio on DC
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  9. #414
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    Rusty, like everyone else, i want to thank you for your contribution to the topic.
    I want to ask you, had the Dreamcast been a viable platform for a couple extra years, do you think you could have gotten a good version of Burnout running on it?

  10. #415
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    I think the salient point is the obsession with total number of polygons (or shader effects). Obviously the more power and options and flexibility you have and the more detail etc can be included but for me a games graphics are a blend (in no particular order) of:
    Geometry (if a 3D game)
    Resolution
    Frame Rate
    Animation
    Art Design
    And probably more

    As long as the graphics do not detract from the experience then they are good enough for me. I am a huge fan of 2D games and pixel art but in terms of 3D there are games with extremely blocky characters etc but the animation and little details and style make that all fade away and I am completely immersed in the game world.

    A great example of this is Metal Gear Solid on PlayStation. Obviously graphically for a PS game it is superb but in terms of these days it obviously looks fairly primitive. However within moments of starting that all fades away as the graphics are really well balanced (I.e the geometry, colour palette, animation, design, style, atmosphere, frame rate etc) all combine to create a compelling world.

    This is kind if where I was going with the "Dreamcast could have remained competitive into maybe 2004" as I truly believe it was powerful enough to do most titles from rival machines that gen minus maybe some of the graphical extras such as huge numbers of particle effects and multiple lighting and bump mapping etc. However personally I really liked the "clean" textured look of most Dreamcast games.

    What was a real shame was that if it had lasted a year or two longer it is possible that they may have been able to better exploit the built in modem ,a feature only the XBOX offered out of the box (optional extra for the others, also the XBOX was abroad and only which while it may have provided a better experience meant it limited its audience as broadband was not so prevalent in 2001)

    Imagine the list of titles I listed earlier ,which seems plausible and didn't include all the titles Sega released at that time (such as Gun Grave and Gun Grave Overdose plus a few others) and add in some more online enabled titles.

    To be fair any machine only needs to receive the odd "phenomenon" game in order to stay relevant. What I mean by this is the type of game that not only is a must play for gamers but also transcends that and breaks into a more mainstream media. Examples would be stuff like Pacman, Super Mario Bros, Tetris, Doom, Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, GoldenEye, Tomb Raider, Pokemon, Call of Duty, Halo etc. would the original XBOX have been a success if not for Halo?

    Nintendo seem really good at this. The only ones that leap to mind for Sega would be Sonic the Hedgehog, maybe Sefa Rally and probably Virtua Fighter series in Japan. Probably forgetting something obvious though.

  11. #416
    Raging in the Streets azonicrider's Avatar
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    SCUD Race could've been Dreamcast killer app, if they brought it over here.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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  13. #418
    Hard Road! ESWAT Veteran Barone's Avatar
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    Some interesting info in this SCEE document about PS2 optimizations:
    "What are some recommended buffer sizes?

    PAL (512 x 512), NTSC (512 x 448)
    Progressive scan support with full height buffers"

    So, probably, 512 x 448 is a better guess for which the resolution the later games with progressive scan support were using; rather than 640 x 480 as people usually supposes.
    File: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0c...it?usp=sharing

  14. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyFox View Post
    I think the salient point is the obsession with total number of polygons (or shader effects). Obviously the more power and options and flexibility you have and the more detail etc can be included but for me a games graphics are a blend (in no particular order) of:
    Geometry (if a 3D game)
    Resolution
    Frame Rate
    Animation
    Art Design
    And probably more

    As long as the graphics do not detract from the experience then they are good enough for me. I am a huge fan of 2D games and pixel art but in terms of 3D there are games with extremely blocky characters etc but the animation and little details and style make that all fade away and I am completely immersed in the game world.

    A great example of this is Metal Gear Solid on PlayStation. Obviously graphically for a PS game it is superb but in terms of these days it obviously looks fairly primitive. However within moments of starting that all fades away as the graphics are really well balanced (I.e the geometry, colour palette, animation, design, style, atmosphere, frame rate etc) all combine to create a compelling world.

    This is kind if where I was going with the "Dreamcast could have remained competitive into maybe 2004" as I truly believe it was powerful enough to do most titles from rival machines that gen minus maybe some of the graphical extras such as huge numbers of particle effects and multiple lighting and bump mapping etc. However personally I really liked the "clean" textured look of most Dreamcast games.

    What was a real shame was that if it had lasted a year or two longer it is possible that they may have been able to better exploit the built in modem ,a feature only the XBOX offered out of the box (optional extra for the others, also the XBOX was abroad and only which while it may have provided a better experience meant it limited its audience as broadband was not so prevalent in 2001)

    Imagine the list of titles I listed earlier ,which seems plausible and didn't include all the titles Sega released at that time (such as Gun Grave and Gun Grave Overdose plus a few others) and add in some more online enabled titles.

    To be fair any machine only needs to receive the odd "phenomenon" game in order to stay relevant. What I mean by this is the type of game that not only is a must play for gamers but also transcends that and breaks into a more mainstream media. Examples would be stuff like Pacman, Super Mario Bros, Tetris, Doom, Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, GoldenEye, Tomb Raider, Pokemon, Call of Duty, Halo etc. would the original XBOX have been a success if not for Halo?

    Nintendo seem really good at this. The only ones that leap to mind for Sega would be Sonic the Hedgehog, maybe Sefa Rally and probably Virtua Fighter series in Japan. Probably forgetting something obvious though.
    Look at what Monster Hunter did for the PSP.

  15. #420
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    Exactly! Or probably Brain Training/Dr Kawashima's How old is your Brain for DS (alongside Nintendogs and Professor Layton) or Wii Sports as other examples. Maybe Guitar Hero too

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