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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfBit View Post
    Just a thought: I've been watching videos of alien front online and the graphics look really nice.
    Anyone think so too? Good-sized areas, cool effects, smooth textures and destructible environments...
    Thoughts, comments, opinions?
    They weren't too bad for the time. They sort of reminded me of Sega's arcade game "Desert Tank". It was a pretty cool game to play online, though the matches were a maximum of 4 vs. 4.


    ---------------------

    ABF, the telegraph and telephone are so far apart. The only thing they have in common is that they are carried on a wire with electricity. Telephone is pretty much more akin to AM radio, while telegraph is more like a electrical smoke signal created by opening and closing an electrical current pathway.
    Last edited by gamevet; 03-06-2014 at 12:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfBit View Post
    Just a thought: I've been watching videos of alien front online and the graphics look really nice.
    Anyone think so too? Good-sized areas, cool effects, smooth textures and destructible environments...
    Thoughts, comments, opinions?
    The game had promise, but it's got two big issues. First, some of the levels are VERY small. They do eventually get a bit larger, but still the games' maps are too often too small. It would have been better with larger levels, like those in the N64 BattleTanx games. Or even better yet, huge levels like Recoil on the PC, or something. Well, okay, Recoil's multiplayer levels were smaller, but they were still bigger than these, usually.

    Second, the game is a multiplayer-focused game, but you can't play it in multiplayer anymore. Sure, online services get shut down, but this is why you have splitscreen support too! But no, the game has no splitscreen, leaving it as half at most of a game; this game just isn't nearly as fun in single player as I'm sure it would be in multiplayer. I played a fair amount of Battletanx: Global Assault (N64) and Recoil (PC) multiplayer back in the late '90s to early '00s, and tank action games can be great in multiplayer! And I'm sure this one was too... but now that you can't play it online anymore, that really take a lot out of the game since it doesn't have any backup, unlike those other titles. The single player campaign is okay, but it's clear that the levels were designed for MP, not single player, given their small size.

    As for the controls, they're good, but could have been a little better... but comparing it to Recoil, which uses mouse & keyboard, wouldn't be fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    They weren't too bad for the time. They sort of reminded me of Sega's arcade game "Desert Tank". It was a pretty cool game to play online, though the matches were a maximum of 4 vs. 4.
    I haven't played that one, but it does sound kind of like it, yeah...

    ABF, the telegraph and telephone are so far apart. The only thing they have in common is that they are carried on a wire with electricity. Telephone is pretty much more akin to AM radio, while telegraph is more like a electrical smoke signal created by opening and closing an electrical current pathway.
    Do you really think that the telephone could have been invented without the telegraph preceding it, though? I don't. I've thought about this before, and the telegraph really is the key invention -- the telephone, radio, internet, they all just improve on what the telegraph first came up with. All of those are really important steps, though.

    To return to the game comparison, I don't know what would be the telegraph -- what would be the first game with some kind of lock-on system? I don't know, offhand -- but OoT would be one of those major steps forward after that, like the telephone, radio, or internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Try actually thinking for once, instead of just making yet another stupid knee-jerk "I must disagree with everything you say" post! It doesn't exactly help your case when you just repeat the same bad logic multiple times with absolutely no support.

    Cross-gen games never match up to games exclusive on that generation. It does not work that way.

    If you disagree, name titles. Cross-gen games where the next-gen version looks just as good for its platform as the last-gen one does. For any systems. The only cases you'll find are ones like Test Drive Le Mans, where the next-gen version is by an entirely separate team, the game isn't really just a version of a last-gen title, and had plenty of time. This has nothing to do with the DC or PS1, it has to do with cross-gen games being not as good on the next-gen platform. For modern cases of this, look at the PS3/X360 games which now have X1/PS4 up-ports, like CoD, Tomb Raider, etc. They look better, sure, but don't push the next-gen hardware like a game designed exclusively for the platform can.
    Well frick, I didn't know that. I guess Test Drive Le Mans sure can't be labelled as a half-assed port.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    If they designed the game from the ground up to run on both PS1 and DC, obviously they wouldn't be able to really push the DC like you could with an exclusive...
    That completely depends on what they did with it. Change enough in terms of models, textures, lighting, etc. and there's not really any reason it couldn't push the system as much as any exclusive. Same goes for if they ported it to Xbone.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Try actually thinking for once, instead of just making yet another stupid knee-jerk "I must disagree with everything you say" post! It doesn't exactly help your case when you just repeat the same bad logic multiple times with absolutely no support.

    Cross-gen games never match up to games exclusive on that generation. It does not work that way.

    If you disagree, name titles. Cross-gen games where the next-gen version looks just as good for its platform as the last-gen one does. For any systems.
    Off the top of my head, Tony Hawk 4. Lots of EA Sports games.


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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Do you really think that the telephone could have been invented without the telegraph preceding it, though? I don't. I've thought about this before, and the telegraph really is the key invention -- the telephone, radio, internet, they all just improve on what the telegraph first came up with. All of those are really important steps, though.
    The telegraph wires and equipment were used to experiment with sending electrical vibrations to diaphragm like devices, but they were impractical for communications over distances beyond a couple of miles.

    The discovery of using a carrier signal is when it became practical for long distance communications. Bell and others before him had the right idea, but it would be many years later before they found a more practical way to send audio transmission through electrical current.
    Last edited by gamevet; 03-06-2014 at 01:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I used to play the trumpet back in the day. You can usually tell when a trumpet is being faked, and there are very few samples that get it right. The 1st time I'd played Iron Storm, the orchestral music really impressed me.
    Yeah I know that feeling. I played Violin in High School so I'm a bit sensitive to String instrument samples. A lot are cut short so they don't have the decay that strings are known for. So they just come off sounding wrong. This is why I actually find FM Strings in certain Genesis games to be more realistic sounding than the ADPCM samples found in some SNES games. They have the correct decay and progression of the notes which comes off sounding more real.

    Really bad MIDI String instruments typically come off sounding more like an odd woodwind or techno sound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider View Post
    Well frick, I didn't know that. I guess Test Drive Le Mans sure can't be labelled as a half-assed port.
    You might want to actually read my posts before saying stupid thing that I've already directly addressed.

    (Hint: different developers, completely different game that just shares the same name, DC ver. released 8 months after PS1. The DC game is not a port of the PC/PS1 game, it's a different title with the same name.)

    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    That completely depends on what they did with it. Change enough in terms of models, textures, lighting, etc. and there's not really any reason it couldn't push the system as much as any exclusive. Same goes for if they ported it to Xbone.
    Sure you can improve the models, but detail, scale, etc, the game is going to be last-gen in some way for sure!

    Off the top of my head, Tony Hawk 4. Lots of EA Sports games.
    Tony Hawk 3 for the PS1/N64 was a pretty significant downgrade versus the next-gen versions, though... are you saying that Tony Hawk 4 for PS1 is different?

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The telegraph wires and equipment were used to experiment with sending electrical vibrations to diaphragm like devices, but they were impractical for communications over distances beyond a couple of miles.

    The discovery of using a carrier signal is when it became practical for long distance communications. Bell and others before him had the right idea, but it would be many years later before they found a more practical way to send audio transmission through electrical current.
    Yeah, as you say, telegraph helped inspire telephone. Most inventions are improved forms of something which came before. The things that are truly new are in some ways even more impressive, of course; this is like the difference between creating an entirely new game genre, versus making the best game yet in a genre that already exists, I think. The latter one probably will be more popular, but the former is at least as or more important (particularly if the concept actually works).

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post

    Yeah, as you say, telegraph helped inspire telephone. Most inventions are improved forms of something which came before. The things that are truly new are in some ways even more impressive, of course; this is like the difference between creating an entirely new game genre, versus making the best game yet in a genre that already exists, I think. The latter one probably will be more popular, but the former is at least as or more important (particularly if the concept actually works).
    You could say 2 cans and a string were more like it than the telegraph was. The telegraph was nothing more than opening and closing an electrical circuit, while the early ideas of sending voice across electrical wire was more like trying to recreate what 2 kids were doing with a couple of cans and a string.

    It's almost like saying videogames wouldn't have happened if not for Tennis for Two being created on an oscilloscope. Videogames were bound to happen one way or another.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    You might want to actually read my posts before saying stupid thing that I've already directly addressed.

    (Hint: different developers, completely different game that just shares the same name, DC ver. released 8 months after PS1. The DC game is not a port of the PC/PS1 game, it's a different title with the same name.)


    Sure you can improve the models, but detail, scale, etc, the game is going to be last-gen in some way for sure!


    Tony Hawk 3 for the PS1/N64 was a pretty significant downgrade versus the next-gen versions, though... are you saying that Tony Hawk 4 for PS1 is different?


    Yeah, as you say, telegraph helped inspire telephone. Most inventions are improved forms of something which came before. The things that are truly new are in some ways even more impressive, of course; this is like the difference between creating an entirely new game genre, versus making the best game yet in a genre that already exists, I think. The latter one probably will be more popular, but the former is at least as or more important (particularly if the concept actually works).
    Dude, I can just copy/paste your post and use it right back at you.

    "You might want to actually read my posts before saying stupid thing that I've already directly addressed."

    What part of my post makes you think that I'm not aware that the ports were done by different teams?
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    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider View Post
    Dude, I can just copy/paste your post and use it right back at you.

    "You might want to actually read my posts before saying stupid thing that I've already directly addressed."

    What part of my post makes you think that I'm not aware that the ports were done by different teams?
    Well, you keep calling it a "port". When two different teams make completely different games that just happen to have the same name, calling them both "ports" really is inaccurate. A port is another version of the same game, not a different game that just has a similar basic concept!

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    You could say 2 cans and a string were more like it than the telegraph was. The telegraph was nothing more than opening and closing an electrical circuit, while the early ideas of sending voice across electrical wire was more like trying to recreate what 2 kids were doing with a couple of cans and a string.

    It's almost like saying videogames wouldn't have happened if not for Tennis for Two being created on an oscilloscope. Videogames were bound to happen one way or another.
    I'm sure videogames would exist without Tennis for Two, but are you really sure that videogame consoles as we know them would have existed without Ralph Baer inventing the concept? I'm not. The difference there is that while Tennis for Two was a major advance, it didn't really lead to anything and didn't get much recognition, while the Odyssey did. Just because something seems "bound to happen" in hindsight doesn't mean that it was actually inevitable; maybe consoles would have taken a lot longer to be thought up, maybe more computer focus, who knows?
    Last edited by A Black Falcon; 03-06-2014 at 10:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Tony Hawk 3 for the PS1/N64 was a pretty significant downgrade versus the next-gen versions, though... are you saying that Tony Hawk 4 for PS1 is different?
    What? Of course it was a downgrade. You wanted cross-gen titles where the next-gen version looks good for the platform. If you want it where the previous-gen version wasn't a downgrade, well, that's the exact opposite of what you just said.


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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    What? Of course it was a downgrade. You wanted cross-gen titles where the next-gen version looks good for the platform. If you want it where the previous-gen version wasn't a downgrade, well, that's the exact opposite of what you just said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I'm sure videogames would exist without Tennis for Two, but are you really sure that videogame consoles as we know them would have existed without Ralph Baer inventing the concept? I'm not. The difference there is that while Tennis for Two was a major advance, it didn't really lead to anything and didn't get much recognition, while the Odyssey did. Just because something seems "bound to happen" in hindsight doesn't mean that it was actually inevitable; maybe consoles would have taken a lot longer to be thought up, maybe more computer focus, who knows?
    It would have eventually happened. MIT students created SpaceWar! on a DEC PDP-1 almost a decade earlier and Bushnell released the arcade dud Computer Space 6 months prior to Baer's Odyssey. The creation of the transistor made it possible for the building of small scale electronics like Baer's brown box. Yeah, Baer was way ahead of the pack with his ideas, but they would have eventually been created.

    Bell was credited with creating the telephone, but there was also a German scientist that was working on a very similar device. Bell getting the patent 1st, led to him being credited for the invention.
    Last edited by gamevet; 03-06-2014 at 11:16 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    What? Of course it was a downgrade. You wanted cross-gen titles where the next-gen version looks good for the platform. If you want it where the previous-gen version wasn't a downgrade, well, that's the exact opposite of what you just said.
    Yeah, I could have worded that better. As I said at first, what I'm talking about are cross-generation multiplatform games. Games on both the last gen machines, and the next gen ones, and that are different versions of the same game on both platforms. One or the other version is inevitably going to be compromised -- either the next-gen port of a last-gen game isn't going to be able to actually get the most out of the more powerful hardware (better models alone won't do that), or the last-gen port is going to be nowhere near up to the level of the next-gen version... unless, as often happens, they compromise the design of the next-gen version in order to make a base game that will also work on the less powerful system too.

    That last problem is the worst one, and it's the most pertinacious. PC games have been hurt badly by this over the past ~13 years, for instance, as consolization progressed -- look at games like Deus Ex: Invisible War or Duke Nukem Forever, hopelessly compromised on the PC in the name of making games that would work on the less powerful consoles too.

    To get back to the point, since Vanishing Point released on PS1 only two months after DC, and by the same developer, they have to have been in development at the same time, and this means that there surely were some points where something in the DC game got simplified so that they could come up with a design that would work on the PS1 too. Unless the two games really are completely different? But I doubt it; Vanishing Point looks pretty good on the DC, but with such narrow tracks, I can see how they could just scale down the graphical detail and get it working on PS1, which is probably what they did, I imagine. What could they have done differently if it was DC-only? Probably something, I'd imagine. Who knows for sure though.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    It would have eventually happened. MIT students created SpaceWar! on a DEC PDP-1 almost a decade earlier and Bushnell released the arcade dud Computer Space 6 months prior to Baer's Odyssey. The creation of the transistor made it possible for the building of small scale electronics like Baer's brown box. Yeah, Baer was way ahead of the pack with his ideas, but they would have eventually been created.
    Sure, as you say, computer games and arcade games existed before Baer. But home video game consoles did not, and just because an industry happened doesn't mean that it had to happen just the way it did, you know. Baer's invention created the videogame industry, that's how it happened. We'd still have games in some form without it, but would video game consoles be just like they are? Who knows.

    Bell was credited with creating the telephone, but there was also a German scientist that was working on a very similar device. Bell getting the patent 1st, led to him being credited for the invention.
    Yeah, I've heard that story before... but once again, would either one have been working on it if the telegraph didn't exist? You really think that they would have anyway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Sure, as you say, computer games and arcade games existed before Baer. But home video game consoles did not, and just because an industry happened doesn't mean that it had to happen just the way it did, you know. Baer's invention created the videogame industry, that's how it happened. We'd still have games in some form without it, but would video game consoles be just like they are? Who knows.
    The original Odyssey wasn't going anywhere. You could give just as much credit to the home pong clones (a copy of Baer's game) as being the catalyst that would eventually lead to Bushnell's Atari VCS being credited as the 1st home console.

    Yeah, I've heard that story before... but once again, would either one have been working on it if the telegraph didn't exist? You really think that they would have anyway?
    Yeah they would. The phonograph provided proof that sound (analog) could be transmitted through electrical current and it was the catalyst for people exploring the use of electricity to transmit sound across longer distances.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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