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Thread: Games with 3D graphics running at 60 fps - 5th Generation Consoles

  1. #31
    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Hey Barone, our discussion with ABF in that other thread got me thinking, doesn't Star Fox 64 run at 60fps? Or is it only 30?
    It runs at 30fps.

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    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    With the way some people (not just here, all over and often in the gaming press as well) obsess about framerates, I'm glad that I can't usually tell the difference between 30fps and 60... all the constant "but it's not 60fps!" stuff does get annoying, but I'm sure I'm better off without really being able to notice the difference.

  3. #33
    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    60fps is much better and everyone can see the difference, unless there is something really wrong with their equipment or their eyes. Or maybe they don't know where to focus in order to feel the (huge) difference.

    Having said that, i didn't care that much for 60fps in 5th generation consoles, i mean having 3D texture graphics alone in decent enough frame rate, was more than enough for me back then and i excuse the fact that the standard had to drop from the 60fps "2D" consoles had before 3D graphics became the norm. But with the the 6th generation, there was no excuse for 30fps to exist anymore because the consoles were powerful enough to easily handle 3D graphics (like the arcades). Thankfully, we saw more 60fps games on Dreamcast/PS2/GC/XBOX and that was great. But in the last generation there were even less 60fps games, i mean there are only 3 or 4 racing games running at 60fps on 360! All the others, in the whole library, run at 30 (including franchises that were 60fps before, like Collin MCray and WRC).

    Unacceptable and inexcusable.
    Last edited by Soulis; 03-05-2014 at 04:45 AM.

  4. #34
    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    60fps is much better and everyone can see the difference, unless there is something really wrong with their equipment or their eyes. Or maybe they don't know where to focus in order to feel the (huge) difference.
    That just is not true. That's the kind of thing people who can always see the difference say, but it's not true for the rest of us. There are only a couple of 30 vs 60 fps gifs where I actually managed to figure out which one was which, and even then it wasn't easy to tell.

    Having said that, i didn't care that much for 60fps in 5th generation consoles, i mean having 3D texture graphics alone in decent enough frame rate, was more than enough for me back then and i excuse the fact that the standard had to drop from the 60fps "2D" consoles had before 3D graphics became the norm. But with the the 6th generation, there was no excuse for 30fps to exist anymore because the consoles were powerful enough to easily handle 3D graphics (like the arcades). Thankfully, we saw more 60fps games on Dreamcast/PS2/GC/XBOX and that was great. But in the last generation there were even less 60fps games, i mean there are only 3 or 4 racing games running at 60fps on 360! All the others, in the whole library, run at 30 (including franchises that were 60fps before, like Collin MCray and WRC).

    Unacceptable and inexcusable.
    30fps is just fine as long as it's stable and doesn't drop below 30. I've played lots of PC games with framerates way below 30, of course (on my old PC in towns Guild Wars would sometimes drop to low single digit framerates... and even when it was running well, it rarely hit 30. I played hundreds of hours of the game anyway.), but 30 is good -- high enough that it's smooth, and if the framerate stays there that's fine. 60 is nice for smoother play, particularly for people who can tell the difference, but 30 is generally fine.

  5. #35
    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    That just is not true. That's the kind of thing people who can always see the difference say, but it's not true for the rest of us. There are only a couple of 30 vs 60 fps gifs where I actually managed to figure out which one was which, and even then it wasn't easy to tell.
    When someone can't see something that others can, it usually means that he has the problem. For instance, i can see clearly in the distance but some of my friends see blurry images. Its not me who has to wear glasses though. Most people can clearly see the difference between 30-60fps. Its natural to be able to tell the difference. Unless people who can tell the difference are mutants who have some kind of super-sight. If that's the case then i guess its irrational to demand 60fps games. Hey, it makes no difference for you either way so why games shouldn't be at 60fps games for the rest of us?


    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    30fps is just fine as long as it's stable and doesn't drop below 30. I've played lots of PC games with framerates way below 30, of course (on my old PC in towns Guild Wars would sometimes drop to low single digit framerates... and even when it was running well, it rarely hit 30. I played hundreds of hours of the game anyway.), but 30 is good -- high enough that it's smooth, and if the framerate stays there that's fine. 60 is nice for smoother play, particularly for people who can tell the difference, but 30 is generally fine.
    30fps is fine for some genres. Its not fine for fighting, racing, FPS and, generally, fast paced games. The difference isn't only on the screen but in how the game feels and responds. Especially if you are into competitive multiplayer with these genres. There is no way you can have the same level of control at 30fps with an opponent who's machine runs the game at 60fps or above. And yes, the fastest paced FPS games like Quake 3 can benefit from even higher frame rates. Back in the day i was playing this game, it had to run at 85fps (synced with my CRT monitor). I played the game on a LCD at 60fps/hz and it felt somewhat sluggish/uncomfortable for me.

    Having said that, the difference in frame rate is more pronounced on CRT displays where each frame is clearer with no ghosting and blurriness that plague LCD displays. But it still has a big difference on LCDs despite these facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    Its not fine for fighting, racing, FPS and, generally, fast paced games.
    That's not strictly true.

    You can run as low as 10 to 15 fps for a racing game, as long as you divorce the game/simulation update from the render update. Believe it or not, driving at speed and most situations in a racing game are not about reactions. If you keep that update at a constant 60fps and just integrate the results of the last two updates, the game is still very, very playable.

    The reason is that the human brain is up to a point, very good at filling in blanks and also on making predictions as long as there is a constant rate of update. For example, when you're driving, you're not focusing visually on what the car is doing right now. You're focusing on where you think the car will be in two seconds into the future. However,if the update is linked to a fluctuating time step or a time step that is too low, the brain has a lot of difficulty dealing with making predictions and has to constantly re-check the current status of the car they are driving. And this makes he game difficult to play in these situations.

    There are certain games that require are reaction based, like Quake, that really need a high frame rate. But even then, if you look at the source code, the entity "think" functions update at a fixed time step rather than being linked to the render update.

  7. #37
    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty View Post
    You can run as low as 10 to 15 fps for a racing game, as long as you divorce the game/simulation update from the render update. Believe it or not, driving at speed and most situations in a racing game are not about reactions. If you keep that update at a constant 60fps and just integrate the results of the last two updates, the game is still very, very playable.
    Racing games aren't only about reaction times. The sense of speed is also important. At 10-15 fps the sense of speed would be non-existent. At 30fps its somewhat bearable but at 60fps its perfect. 60fps racing games of the past (arcade versions of Daytona, Sega Rally, etc) have aged so well because of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    Racing games aren't only about reaction times.
    That's pretty much what I said. Reactions have very little to do with it, because the player is always deciding what they're going to do based on where they think/want the car to be roughly 2 seconds into the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    The sense of speed is also important. At 10-15 fps the sense of speed would be non-existent. At 30fps its somewhat bearable but at 60fps its perfect. 60fps racing games of the past (arcade versions of Daytona, Sega Rally, etc) have aged so well because of this.
    That has more to do with the size of the time step used in integration. Like I said, there's a limit to where the game will feel smooth in terms of frame rate but with a fixed simulation update of around 100Hz or even 50Hz, you really don't notice it at around 30fps. The reason old arcade racers want to run at 60fps, is because the game update runs in lock step with the rendering.

  9. #39
    Hard Road! ESWAT Veteran Barone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Some other's would be

    Jonah Lomu Rugby - Sprites but with 3D polygon stadiums and Pitch

    MR Bones - Sprites FMV and Polygons

    NinKu - Sprites but 3D backgrounds

    Stellar Assualt

    Also I'm not sure and have to double check the games but I'm sure World League Soccer 98 runs at 60 fps doesn't Willy Wombat, Thunderhawk 2 and Wing Arms and Iron Storm run at 60 fps
    World League Soccer 98, Willy Wombat, Thunderhawk II, Wing Arms, Iron Storm, NinKu run at 30 fps in game.
    MR Bones has no 3D graphics as far as I could see and its FMV graphics run at 15 fps.

    World League Soccer 98 uses Saturn high res mode though.

    OTOH, Striker '96 and Jonah Lomu Rugby (which uses the same engine) run at 60 fps both on the Saturn and on the PS1 (the 3DO's Striker run at 30 fps ). Cool, thanks.
    Stellar Assault SS seems to run at 60 fps in interlaced mode.


    Quote Originally Posted by saturndual32 View Post
    What about J League Go Go Goal for the Sega Saturn by Tecmo?, does it really run at 60 fps in high rez mode?
    It's NOT high res but it DOES run at 60 fps, thanks a lot for the suggestion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    Wait, Forsaken runs at 60fps on PS1 and not on N64?
    Yep.


    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Hey Barone, our discussion with ABF in that other thread got me thinking, doesn't Star Fox 64 run at 60fps? Or is it only 30?
    Only 30 fps, even during the cutscenes.


    Quote Originally Posted by rusty View Post
    That's not strictly true.

    You can run as low as 10 to 15 fps for a racing game, as long as you divorce the game/simulation update from the render update. Believe it or not, driving at speed and most situations in a racing game are not about reactions. If you keep that update at a constant 60fps and just integrate the results of the last two updates, the game is still very, very playable.
    The speed sensation is usually much better in games running at 60 fps IMO. F1 games are probably the best examples I can remember.
    I agree that some people can't notice the difference but it usually gives me that extra little dose of enjoyment. I always liked F-Zero X due to that, it was so freaking fast.
    For 3D fighters I also think it's really a nice feature. Most of the 30 fps 3D fighters feel "floaty" IMO, I usually dislike them or end up playing them much less than the good ones which run at 60 fps.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xan View Post
    I don't know if it hits 60 fps, but Wipeout 3 has an extremely fluid framerate while running at a hi-res 512x256, AFAIK.
    It's 30 fps.


    I've update the list with some other PS1 games as well.

  10. #40
    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    I haven't tested it myself but i'm hearing that Road Rush 64 runs at 60fps with the expansion pack. Is that true?

  11. #41
    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Add Smash Bros to the N64 list, the game runs at 60fps.

  12. #42
    Hard Road! ESWAT Veteran Barone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    I haven't tested it myself but i'm hearing that Road Rush 64 runs at 60fps with the expansion pack. Is that true?
    Nope. That's just another misinformation spread by Wikipedia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    Add Smash Bros to the N64 list, the game runs at 60fps.
    Only on emulators AFAIK.

  13. #43
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Is there a clone thread that lists 3D games 5th gen games with resolutions higher than 320x224?

    once you get to 512x256, 512x480, 640x480 territory, those resolutions don't look bad on an HDTV.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  14. #44
    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Only on emulators AFAIK.
    Smash Bros looks like it runs at 60fps on real N64, some guy on another forum confirms it:

    http://dsxcorner.com/Untitled.mp4

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    Yeah I don't think it's possible for an emulator to increase a game's framerate past its original limit, without hacking or altering the game in some way.

    I started playing Earthworm Jim 3D on an emulator recently and I was surprised to find it running at 60 fps. It drops frames like crazy when you're fighting enemies, but the rest of the time it's unusually smooth compared to, well, every other 3D platformer on the N64. Can someone confirm that Earthworm Jim 3D runs at 60 fps on actual hardware?

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