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Thread: Micro-64 Feature: Nintendo 64 Vs. Sega Saturn

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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    You're making an intentionally false argument here for two reasons. First, as you surely know, the N64 only supports resolutions up to 640x480. Saying "where are the N64 games at 720x480" is like saying "where are the PS1 and Saturn games with perspective correction?" -- it's asking for the impossible
    Not I'm simply stating a strong part of the Saturn . Overlooking that how many of the N64 VS Fighters run at 640X480 at 60 fps

    And second, again, none of the top Japanese fighting game developers supported the N64.
    You're going to tell me that Kiss was a top Japanese game developer ?.

    the team which made the N64's best 3d fighting game, Fighter's Destiny.
    I thought that was Genki (ex AM#2 staff) and I don't Fighters Destiny at the N64 max screen res either .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You're going to tell me that Kiss was a top Japanese game developer ?.
    To be fair, Anarchy in the Nippon was only published by KSS. Supposedly the game was made by former AM2 team members who worked on Saturn Virtua Fighter 2, when Sega turned the pitch down, they went to someone else to publish it.

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    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Not I'm simply stating a strong part of the Saturn .
    Demanding the impossible isn't just 'stating a strong point'.

    Overlooking that how many of the N64 VS Fighters run at 640X480 at 60 fps
    Probably not any, though some probably are 60fps. But did anyone who made an N64 fighting game make a 60fps, 640x480 or higher fighter on the PS1 or Saturn either? I think the answer is no. The developers making fighting games on the N64 didn't prioritize that.

    You're going to tell me that Kiss was a top Japanese game developer ?.
    KSS didn't develop the game.

    I thought that was Genki (ex AM#2 staff) and I don't Fighters Destiny at the N64 max screen res either .
    I guess Genki and Opus both had a role in making the games. As for resolution it's probably just standard res; it's the gameplay that is great, more so than the somewhat average graphics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thief View Post
    Of course I know that and how both of them work. Point I was talking about is gameplay style.
    But whether a game has hardware scaling or not affects gameplay. I mean, something like Outrun on the Genesis is a lot less fun than the arcade game, and scaling is a big part of why! It's still decently good, but the arcade version is better. Games like Top Gear scale back their ambition to fit to the limits of the hardware, they aren't trying to match arcade Outrun or Power Drift.

    And Road Rash had enough scaling, so don't say Genesis can't support some of it.
    Road Rash's framerate is terrible, though. Never liked those games all that much, and one reason are the bad framerates. You can't do software scaling on the Genesis without some compromises.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Probably the more expensive cost was the RAM cart, which that was made by Sega if I remember correctly. Basically they were much cheaper and safer projects than say bringing Megaman Legends or Resident Evil 2 to the System.
    Think of game development costs, not only production costs. 2d games require lots of sprite art, they aren't necessarily cheap games to make. And as for Capcom's N64 games, one is a cheap puzzle game; RE2 was outsourced to a team with experience on the N64, that probably saved Capcom some money versus doing it internally; and Megaman Legends... that may have cost more, but who knows. Even if it cost more to make than RE2 though, it has a smaller cart size and probably cost less than a full new game of that level, 2d or 3d, would.

    Again, the most important thing is what that audience will buy -- and Capcom clearly decided that they didn't think that the Saturn audience for 3d games like Mega Man Legends would be large enough to justify the expense. Capcom's only polygonal Saturn games are, I believe, RE1 and Final Fight Revenge.

    Again yes and no. It had solid support from your smaller lesser known developers at the time, but Capcom and Konami were definitely playing it very safe with the system. Again no ports of their big 3D titles, some of their big ports like Castlevania were handed off to lower tier teams, etc.
    Capcom's massive library of 2d games on the Saturn is not "playing very safe". Quite the opposite, it is significant, strong support! It's kind of crazy how much Capcom went to Sega's side on the Saturn and Dreamcast, after releasing almost nothing for their platforms beforehand. Just because most games also saw (often inferior) Playstation releases, and were almost all 2d, doesn't mean that they were in any way "safe". Safe would be doing like they did on the Genesis -- release a couple of games, but reserve everything else for the more successful platform.

    As for Konami, yeah, their Saturn support was thinner, that is true. That's a better example of a mostly "safe" release library -- support the platform some while it's doing okay in Japan ('95-'96), and then mostly ditch it once it fades a bit (mid '97). It's notable that Gradius Gaiden didn't see a Saturn release, for example, while all of Konami's previous shmups that generation did.

    And Namco didn't even touch the system.
    Namco was in effect almost a Sony second party for a while, so this isn't surprising.

    We mostly saw support from smaller teams like Hudson, Tecmo, Game Arts, Technosoft, Treasure, etc. And even then not so much in the 3D arena. Games like Anarchy in the Nippon were made by teams that were former Sega devs as well. We saw very safe third party support with few developers actually trying to really push the system in 3D graphics.
    The Saturn had support from lots of studios from small to large. Sure, they didn't have the top RPG studios (anything Square, and Enix's RPG teams) or the Sony-loving Namco, but they had games from most other major players.

    And again as has been brought up to you before is that while yes 94-97 and 96-99 are both 3 years, they're three years in different portions of the generation. Especially in racing games. One era is when games like Sega Rally, Daytona, and Ridge Racer were the top tier racing games that all were compared to. The other is during and after your photorealistic style racers like Gran Turismo started coming out and changed the standard for the graphical style people wanted. You can't deny that was a big impact and is part of why comparing Saturn racers to late PS1 and N64 racers becomes such an issue.
    Sure those times are different, but you rely too heavily on the convenience of "but times were different!" to cover over some of the system's faults. Sega Touring Car, with its anemic three tracks, and Manx TT, with its one and a half tracks; and Sonic R, with five tracks but no championship mode or anything, were Sega's three main racing games in 1997, for example... the year that the N64 got Diddy Kong Racing, San Francisco Rush, Top Gear Rally, Exteme-G, and more -- all games with lots more content than the Sega games, in both tracks and championship/adventure modes. I know Sega was still focused on arcade-style experiences, but by '97 peoples' expectations were changing, and Sega wasn't keeping up. They got the message later on and their few Dreamcast racing games do have more content, thankfully. I mean, yeah Daytona USA for the Saturn is fantastic, but I really like having more full-featured single player modes. Great gameplay matters the most -- this is why I like Saturn Daytona more than Dreamcast Daytona despite all the additional stuff the DC has -- but that additional stuff matters a lot as well.
    Last edited by A Black Falcon; 01-03-2016 at 02:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    To be fair, Anarchy in the Nippon was only published by KSS. Supposedly the game was made by former AM2 team members who worked on Saturn Virtua Fighter 2, when Sega turned the pitch down, they went to someone else to publish it.
    I thought it Kiss were made up of VF Arcade players who tried to make their own game working on the game moves and such . Looking over that Genki was made up almost 100% of ex Am#2 staff and Fighters Destiny wasn't running in the N64 mag res.
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 01-03-2016 at 06:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    I have a love-hate relationship with sprite scaling games. They were always fascinating to me in the arcades but they were also the worst home ports. It took us 10 years to see the first arcade perfect sprite scaling game in our homes. Obviously, these things required something stronger than an Amiga or a Mega Drive. I got my hopes up with the Sega CD, since it has scaling capabilities and an extra CPU, but it also felt short for some reason.
    Mega CD did fall short, helped by the fact that Sega didn't seem to envision it being a home for ports of their scaler games. As for the machine's scaling abilities themselves, as far as I recall from technical discussion here the frame rate on games that did use full screen scaling/rotation effects ran less than 30 fps due to bottlenecks in the VDP bandwidth (someone correct me if I'm off there). Having said that, at the time of release Core's Thunderhawk was pretty much the most impressive scaling game I'd ever seen at home, although it hasn't aged as well as their two later games Battlecorps and Soul Star since on screen colours are extremely limited.

    By the time Soul Star released, the engine was pushing a ton of varied sprites around the screen with much nicer (seemingly higher) colour count.

    Technically speaking, the most envelope pushing moment IMO is in the underground walker section where you have the floor, ceiling, as well as walls at the periphery of the playfield - It looks awesome - to me almost PS1 like (no warping textures here, obviously) and I haven't seen the Mega CD top that. It seems to run around 20 fps or so, dropping in parts when some of the larger swarms/ massive sprites make an appearance.

    It's as close to Galaxy Force 2 performance as we got before the 32 bitters, especially in the later levels.

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    Mega Driven Raging in the Streets cleeg's Avatar
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    I agree, I was also struck by the PS like appearance of that level. I wonder what could be achieved with the Mega CD nowadays, it has that untapped potential feel about it somehow, especially in the scaling dept.

    As a side note for me personally, I hear a lot about the importance of frame rate, I reckon it is the most acceptable form of compromise when bringing visual spectacle to the screen. If it can be kept then so much the better, but for something like Soul Star to achieve what it did with the walker / mech stages it still looks and plays brilliantly and smoothly enough.

    Again, all subjective on my part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Probably the more expensive cost was the RAM cart, which that was made by Sega if I remember correctly. Basically they were much cheaper and safer projects than say bringing Megaman Legends or Resident Evil 2 to the System.



    Again yes and no. It had solid support from your smaller lesser known developers at the time, but Capcom and Konami were definitely playing it very safe with the system. Again no ports of their big 3D titles, some of their big ports like Castlevania were handed off to lower tier teams, etc. And Namco didn't even touch the system. We mostly saw support from smaller teams like Hudson, Tecmo, Game Arts, Technosoft, Treasure, etc. And even then not so much in the 3D arena. Games like Anarchy in the Nippon were made by teams that were former Sega devs as well. We saw very safe third party support with few developers actually trying to really push the system in 3D graphics.

    And again as has been brought up to you before is that while yes 94-97 and 96-99 are both 3 years, they're three years in different portions of the generation. Especially in racing games. One era is when games like Sega Rally, Daytona, and Ridge Racer were the top tier racing games that all were compared to. The other is during and after your photorealistic style racers like Gran Turismo started coming out and changed the standard for the graphical style people wanted. You can't deny that was a big impact and is part of why comparing Saturn racers to late PS1 and N64 racers becomes such an issue.
    I personally hate with a passion all the changes Gran Turismo brought to the racing genre. BS racing game should never of existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Think of game development costs, not only production costs. 2d games require lots of sprite art, they aren't necessarily cheap games to make. And as for Capcom's N64 games, one is a cheap puzzle game; RE2 was outsourced to a team with experience on the N64, that probably saved Capcom some money versus doing it internally; and Megaman Legends... that may have cost more, but who knows. Even if it cost more to make than RE2 though, it has a smaller cart size and probably cost less than a full new game of that level, 2d or 3d, would.
    All that 2D Art was already done for the Arcade version. So that cost isn't relevant to the Saturn port. As for outsourcing, the Saturn's port of Resident Evil was outsourced as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Again, the most important thing is what that audience will buy -- and Capcom clearly decided that they didn't think that the Saturn audience for 3d games like Mega Man Legends would be large enough to justify the expense. Capcom's only polygonal Saturn games are, I believe, RE1 and Final Fight Revenge.
    Again, RE1 was outsourced, and Final Fight Revenge was an Arcade port. This pretty much falls right into what I said. The Saturn may have gotten more support from Capcom and other Japanese developers than the N64, but it was very safe support with no attempts to really push the system's 3D capabilities like what the N64 got.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Capcom's massive library of 2d games on the Saturn is not "playing very safe". Quite the opposite, it is significant, strong support! It's kind of crazy how much Capcom went to Sega's side on the Saturn and Dreamcast, after releasing almost nothing for their platforms beforehand. Just because most games also saw (often inferior) Playstation releases, and were almost all 2d, doesn't mean that they were in any way "safe". Safe would be doing like they did on the Genesis -- release a couple of games, but reserve everything else for the more successful platform.
    Look at what they did release. Save for an outsourced port of Resident Evil and Final Fight Revenge, it's all 2D games. Megaman Legends falls right in line with the Gradius Gaiden example from Konami below. Capcom had no problem throwing Megaman 8, X3, and X4 at the Saturn. But as soon as a 3D Megaman came along (at the same time as those 2D ones mind you), no Saturn version. Notice the Saturn also didn't get any of the Street Fighter EX games either.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    As for Konami, yeah, their Saturn support was thinner, that is true. That's a better example of a mostly "safe" release library -- support the platform some while it's doing okay in Japan ('95-'96), and then mostly ditch it once it fades a bit (mid '97). It's notable that Gradius Gaiden didn't see a Saturn release, for example, while all of Konami's previous shmups that generation did.
    And Gradius Gaiden is a 3D shmup while all the ones Konami put on the Saturn are 2D.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Namco was in effect almost a Sony second party for a while, so this isn't surprising.
    Yet they still supported the N64 and Dreamcat. Not to mention they still supported the SNES after the PS1 for a bit too.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    The Saturn had support from lots of studios from small to large. Sure, they didn't have the top RPG studios (anything Square, and Enix's RPG teams) or the Sony-loving Namco, but they had games from most other major players.
    The other major players being Konami and Capcom? Again we established those to played it safe. Yeah Capcom put effort into making those 2D games good on the Saturn, but they didn't give the same love and care to 3D games on the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Sure those times are different, but you rely too heavily on the convenience of "but times were different!" to cover over some of the system's faults. Sega Touring Car, with its anemic three tracks, and Manx TT, with its one and a half tracks; and Sonic R, with five tracks but no championship mode or anything, were Sega's three main racing games in 1997, for example... the year that the N64 got Diddy Kong Racing, San Francisco Rush, Top Gear Rally, Exteme-G, and more -- all games with lots more content than the Sega games, in both tracks and championship/adventure modes.
    You are comparing 2 Arcade racers and 1 exclusive racer to 2 exclusive racers and 1 arcade racer. You don't see the issue there? Not to mention 2 of those games are from 1996 and 1995 in Arcades. Sure Sonic R didn't have a championship mode or more tracks it did have some other game modes in it, and some things to unlock and explore in the tracks. And Touring Car did add an extra track to bring it up to 5 tracks, and did have things added to it with car customization, net challenge events, hidden cars, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I know Sega was still focused on arcade-style experiences, but by '97 peoples' expectations were changing, and Sega wasn't keeping up. They got the message later on and their few Dreamcast racing games do have more content, thankfully. I mean, yeah Daytona USA for the Saturn is fantastic, but I really like having more full-featured single player modes. Great gameplay matters the most -- this is why I like Saturn Daytona more than Dreamcast Daytona despite all the additional stuff the DC has -- but that additional stuff matters a lot as well.
    Late 97 is when we see that shift start to happen. That's when racers like Gran Turismo, all the racers you just listed for the N64, etc. start to come out. That's the tail end of the Saturn's 3 year span. Yeah the three racers you listed came out late 97, but two are simple arcade ports of games much older. Sonic R is really the only serious one, and that's the one that is the most graphically impressive and we see the start of more content being added. And again, that last year started sputtering out around May with Bernie Stolar's famous E3 comments. The point is, if those 3 years on the Saturn were the same 3 years on the N64, or even just overlapped a bit more, then we could say it's more equal and comparable. But it's not, they're two very different parts of that generation.

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    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Sonic R is really the only serious one, and that's the one that is the most graphically impressive
    I'm sorry but i just can't accept this game as "graphically impressive". Sure, it may have nice colorful textures and some nice effects, but the hideous pop-up pretty much cancels out everything about it. I mean, after bashing Turok again and again for it's fog, i find it interesting that you don't seem to mind when Sonic-R does an even worse kind of pop-up. At least the fog somewhat smooths out the effect. Having things appearing instantly in front of you like in Sonic-R is much more annoying. Same can be said for Nights and at least this has the excuse of rendering stuff on the ceiling thing. But still. Short draw distance is short draw distance. And if Turok was bad for you because of it's short draw distance, i can't see how these games get a pass. It's literally, the worst looking pop-up i have ever seen in that generation, it even beats AeroGauge on the N64 (which is the worst offender for the N64 in that regard).

    Yeah i know, it's an old topic, but i'm kinda bored and you never really explained this tbh.

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    I'm sorry but i just can't accept this game as "graphically impressive". Sure, it may have nice colorful textures and some nice effects, but the hideous pop-up pretty much cancels out everything about it. I mean, after bashing Turok again and again for it's fog, i find it interesting that you don't seem to mind when Sonic-R does an even worse kind of pop-up. At least the fog somewhat smooths out the effect. Having things appearing instantly in front of you like in Sonic-R is much more annoying. Same can be said for Nights and at least this has the excuse of rendering stuff on the ceiling thing. But still. Short draw distance is short draw distance. And if Turok was bad for you because of it's short draw distance, i can't see how these games get a pass. It's literally, the worst looking pop-up i have ever seen in that generation, it even beats AeroGauge on the N64 (which is the worst offender for the N64 in that regard).

    Yeah i know, it's an old topic, but i'm kinda bored and you never really explained this tbh.
    Have you played Sonic R and Turok 64 on real hardware?
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    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Have you played Sonic R and Turok 64 on real hardware?
    I have Turok but not Sonic-R. I played it on SSF and it looks exactly like the videos Trekkies posted. So it should be accurate enough. Sonic does have a static background picture that doesn't get affected by pop-up and gives you the illusion of distance, but the main level geometry and all the objects are materializing in front of you. It looks great in still screenshots but pretty weird when you play. Because at one moment you see something in the distance (that is drawn on the static background) and suddenly a building or hill appears in between. This is even more distracting that "normal" pop-up.

    Turok doesn't have a static background picture that gives you the illusion of a far distance view but it makes more sense since the fog works as a fog should be, that means hiding everything behind it. So it doesn't look as "pleasant" but it also doesn't look as weird or so "off".

    Now, i'm not saying that the fog in Turok isn't bad. It is and the new re-master proves that, as the pushed back fog makes the game actually look pretty good this time. But i find it biased that the short draw distance in this game makes it the worst thing ever but a similar thing on another game, not only isn't bothersome, but it also doesn't even prevent it of being one of the best games graphically, for the system it runs, according to some.
    Last edited by Soulis; 01-03-2016 at 04:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrone View Post
    By the time Soul Star released, the engine was pushing a ton of varied sprites around the screen with much nicer (seemingly higher) colour count.



    Quote Originally Posted by cleeg View Post
    As a side note for me personally, I hear a lot about the importance of frame rate, I reckon it is the most acceptable form of compromise when bringing visual spectacle to the screen. If it can be kept then so much the better, but for something like Soul Star to achieve what it did with the walker / mech stages it still looks and plays brilliantly and smoothly enough.
    There's something to be said about games using real-time scaling like SoulStar though. You'll have almost all of the objects on screen being updated, moved/redrawn/resized/animated every frame.
    While in most console games using the regular sprite replacement technique you'd be lucky to have the objects on screen being updated, moved/replaced/animated at half of the floor scrolling frame rate.

    There's also the sense of proportionality between size and distance which is usually much improved in real-time scaling games like SoulStar than in regular knock offs like MD's Space Harrier.

    All those things affect our perception of how smooth a game looks. It's not only about the said frame rate (which was commonly stretched out of context for that kind of 2D game back in the days; people would usually state the frame rate solely based on the floor/scrolling updates but the other objects were likely being moved/animated at a slower pace).

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    Mega Driven Raging in the Streets cleeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post




    There's something to be said about games using real-time scaling like SoulStar though. You'll have almost all of the objects on screen being updated, moved/redrawn/resized/animated every frame.
    While in most console games using the regular sprite replacement technique you'd be lucky to have the objects on screen being updated, moved/replaced/animated at half of the flohor scrolling frame rate.

    There's also the sense of proportionality between size and distance which is usually much improved in real-time scaling games like SoulStar than in regular knock offs like MD's Space Harrier.

    All those things affect our perception of how smooth a game looks. It's not only about the said frame rate (which was commonly stretched out of context for that kind of 2D game back in the days; people would usually state the frame rate solely based on the floor/scrolling updates but the other objects were likely being moved/animated at a slower pace).
    Thanks for pointing me to this post, I have limited understanding of most of this stuff but find it dead interesting. To go along with my point, After Burner II for the 32X runs at 30fps, half that of the arcade - to me this is acceptable as a compromise to keep the rest of the spectacle intact. It's preferable to stuff like removing sprites / effects etc which, to me at least, have a more negative visual impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulis View Post
    I'm sorry but i just can't accept this game as "graphically impressive". Sure, it may have nice colorful textures and some nice effects, but the hideous pop-up pretty much cancels out everything about it. I mean, after bashing Turok again and again for it's fog, i find it interesting that you don't seem to mind when Sonic-R does an even worse kind of pop-up. At least the fog somewhat smooths out the effect. Having things appearing instantly in front of you like in Sonic-R is much more annoying. Same can be said for Nights and at least this has the excuse of rendering stuff on the ceiling thing. But still. Short draw distance is short draw distance. And if Turok was bad for you because of it's short draw distance, i can't see how these games get a pass. It's literally, the worst looking pop-up i have ever seen in that generation, it even beats AeroGauge on the N64 (which is the worst offender for the N64 in that regard).

    Yeah i know, it's an old topic, but i'm kinda bored and you never really explained this tbh.
    I did explain it. Sonic R's draw distance is still better than the first Turok and it has more detailed geometry. Not to mention that Sonic R is also doing tons of effects that are supposed to be either impossible or very performance heavy to do on the Saturn such as transparencies, reflections, etc. The fade-in effect is also more visually pleasing because it doesn't completely obscure the sky and horizon like Turok's fog does. Turok seems like the entire game takes place on the most ugly, foggy, miserable day. Sonic R we can at least see blue skies and what not. Another interesting thing to note with the draw distance is that it's more restrictive in the horizontal sense than it is in the vertical sense. Go exploring with Tails or Knuckles and you get pretty high up in some spots of Regal Ruin or Reactive Factory, and you'll notice just about everything below you is still rendered.

    Things really don't just pop-in either in Sonic R save for the final track. They fade in.

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    Sonic R's pop may be pretty noticeable, but it also give you a ton of 3D freedom in many directions at high speeds too. Compared to other racers where the track only goes forward.

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