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Thread: Why do people have issues with others not being fans of the SNES?

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Sprites on the SNES were either 8◊8, 16◊16, 32◊32 or 64◊64, and you could choose only two sizes. And you only got 16KB of memory to reserve for their graphics, at that. Artists who wanted to cram in as many sprites in memory as feasible weren't happy over this (if I recall correctly, this was a big issue when developing Earthworm Jim)

    EDIT: right, for comparison before I forget: the Mega Drive can have sizes that are 8, 16, 24 or 32 pixels high in either axis (separately), and could use all 64KB of video memory for sprites (most of the time backgrounds and tables took up so much memory that it was more on par with the SNES, but for those times you needed a lot more of sprite variety than background, the Mega Drive definitely gives you the option while the SNES will make your life hell). So yeah, there was a lot more of flexibility here.

    Also incidentally beat'em-ups are one of the genres that need lots of memory spent in sprites (due to large unique characters). This is why console beat'em-ups tend to limit the enemy count to 3-4 characters max.
    In order to illustrate what Sik said here, I decided to run the Genesis port of Joe & Mac on Exodus emulator and take some notes:





    In a recent interview to Sega-16, the developer of this port said:
    The Genesis didnít have enough memory to contain the levels, so we came up with a process where we could copy across new background graphics on the fly so that we could get everything in. The sprites were more of a challenge, but Tim worked really hard to faithfully reproduce the game with the limitations of the Genesis compared to the original arcade machine. We did have to cut back in some areas, but I think they were few and far between.
    Full interview here: http://www.sega-16.com/2016/05/inter...art-middleton/

    When you're running this game on the emulator you can notice that it updates/replaces part of the VRAM with new background tiles every time the screen scrolls a little bit; so it works exactly like the developer described in the interview.
    By doing that, he managed to free up some extra space for the sprites, which I calculated (measuring the size of the address range of the VRAM areas which contain sprites) at around 22 Kbytes (or more; I believe it uses up to 24 Kbytes in some moments) in any given moment when you're in 2P mode.

    So I think that's a good example of what Sik had stated and a situation where it clearly surpasses the sprite memory limit of the SNES (16 Kbytes).

    Also, by observing the sprite list you can see how the flexibility of the Genesis sprite table is useful for games like this. Several different sprite sizes were used there, while on the SNES you'd be limited to only two of them and it wouldn't offer the non-square ones (like 8x16).

    And all those limitations were pushed with only 60 sprites on the sprite list (usually not all of those sprites will be shown on screen at once at any given frame) (80 sprites would be the maximum for that resolution on the Genesis); that's why knowledgeable people such as Chilly Willy always called "bullshit" those specs vs specs comparisons where the SNES is sold as the console with the superior sprite system by just mentioning that its maximum number of sprites is 128 (against 80 on the Genesis).

    PS: Just as an additional note, the VDP registers window tells that the game often uses DMA transfers of length 1 Kbyte in order to update the VRAM.
    Last edited by Barone; 09-16-2016 at 07:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    My issue with several of your posts is that they don't have much substance to the points you're trying to make.

    You say the SNES hardware is superior and you stop there. Gimme some arguments, examples, comparisons, etc.
    You say you see things differently, but you don't cite/barely cite what exactly you see that I/we don't.
    Sorry Barone it doesn't work like that and why shouldn't people say in some area's the Snes is superior. In terms of number Sprites on Screen, Colours on Screen, Colour Pallete, number of Background layers,Support for Hardware scaling and rotation, Color layering and Sound the Snes Spec is better those are facts . We can all lists games but that doesn't aways give the true picture and I'll give a few clear examples .

    Many here say the MD is better at throwing around sprites , play Smash TV on both the Mega Drive and Snes and tell me which version is the best . Many would say the MD is more powerful than the NEC PC Eng play Outrun on both systems and tell me which is the best, even though the SEGA version was made by SEGA themself's Thunderblade on the PC Eng is doing a better job of trying to replecate the Arcade than the Mega Drive version again made In-House by SEGA , Afterb Burner II on the PC Eng features more scailing objects and more detail on the grounds , which versions of Mortal Kombat 1 and II look and sound the best, the Snes or the MD versions .

    You show me a game made back in the day (no links to homebrew or tech demo) where a Mega Drive racer had the Mode 7 effect with complete 360 rotation and run at 60 fps , but the same token I would think it almost impossoble to find a Snes game that run as fast as Sonic II while throwing all those backrounds and sprites . Up untill this gen when there are basically the same tech, all systesm had their Hardware quirks and plus and minus points
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  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Sorry Barone it doesn't work like that and why shouldn't people say in some area's the Snes is superior. In terms of number Sprites on Screen, Colours on Screen, Colour Pallete, number of Background layers,Support for Hardware scaling and rotation, Color layering and Sound the Snes Spec is better those are facts . We can all lists games but that doesn't aways give the true picture and I'll give a few clear examples .

    Many here say the MD is better at throwing around sprites , play Smash TV on both the Mega Drive and Snes and tell me which version is the best . Many would say the MD is more powerful than the NEC PC Eng play Outrun on both systems and tell me which is the best, even though the SEGA version was made by SEGA themself's Thunderblade on the PC Eng is doing a better job of trying to replecate the Arcade than the Mega Drive version again made In-House by SEGA , Afterb Burner II on the PC Eng features more scailing objects and more detail on the grounds , which versions of Mortal Kombat 1 and II look and sound the best, the Snes or the MD versions .

    You show me a game made back in the day (no links to homebrew or tech demo) where a Mega Drive racer had the Mode 7 effect with complete 360 rotation and run at 60 fps , but the same token I would think it almost impossoble to find a Snes game that run as fast as Sonic II while throwing all those backrounds and sprites . Up untill this gen when there are basically the same tech, all systesm had their Hardware quirks and plus and minus points
    I don't know if you realize you sound like a broken record at this point.

    Every rule has exceptions and I think no one in this thread has stated otherwise.

    And I guess you don't understand that there's a huge difference between a game such as Smash TV, which fills its fixed screen with lots of repetitions of the same small character to something like Bare Knuckle III or Joe & Mac.

    It's sad that you can't even understand that makes a lot more sense to compare SNES MK3/UMK3 to MD MK3/UMK3 than the previous MK ports which were developed by different developers. Also, Probe is widely known for being sloppy with ports.
    If that's one of your go-to arguments, I'm afraid to say you're in a poor position.

    PC Engine's Out Run is technically inferior to the MD port (which, by the way, wasn't developed by Sega but by one of its partners).
    Tell me, TA, where are the dual road sections in the PCE version? They're nowhere to be found.
    How is the PCE version superior if it cuts down road lanes in several sections of the game in comparison to the MD port? Please, explain that to me.
    The elevation changes are noticeably simplified, especially when it should reproduce a quickly lowering segment.
    The number of Ferrari frames are reduced, several segments have noticeably less track side details (desert, for an example), jaggies on the road are more noticeable, etc.
    Then you have the lower resolution and noticeable borders.
    Same sad target frame rate for both versions: 20 fps.
    Last edited by Barone; 09-16-2016 at 06:44 AM.

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    He is saying it's magic. It's a joke. He's probably not saying what it really is because for Radiant Emerald the reality is that it's not real transparent polygons but instead clever VDP2 layering.
    Travels Tails class the effect Cross Misting and give it a fancy name like Pixel Dust, that's what a lot of teams do like the Jet Set Radio team.

    I have played all the Virtua Fighter's on the Saturn. The original version is terrible. And it is an issue not being able to see the entire ring. It throws off your entire sense of positioning
    You're just making it up tbh . The clipping was only at the top of the screen at the back of the characters,it was never an issue to those playing the games . Looking over that , you're so quick in other threads to point out how the VDP II is doing effects the PS finds hard (The Saturn version of Mode 7)

    I didn't knock mode 7, I simply pointed out that the Genesis can do the effect through software to varying degrees of success.
    You do knock it only to praise the Saturn VDP II effect - its basically the same thing only 2 backgrounds can be scaled and rotated but you're so quick to priase it the Saturn . Sometimes you bring up Grandia. How does better 'looking' water effects in Grandia change and alter the gameplay ?, how does better-looking floor effects in Thunder Force V change and alter the game , its not like the PS can't replicate the effect in software with varying degrees of success it's self either.

    I wouldn't say too much, but even Jon Burton from Travelers Tails loves the Saturn and called it 'souped up snes' as did a number of teams

    The difference in those games is that the clipping isn't happening 2-3 feet away from the player.
    Play Sega Rally in the Arcades in 2 player mode and almost right from the start there's clipping of the 2nd player car on the 1st player screen that can be off-putting for a bit , there's also huge amounts of clipping in the rear view mirror , Virtual Racing there's drawn in and pop up all over the place , especially with camera angle 4 . The clipping in VF doesn't happen much to the left or right of the players in Virtual Fighter at all and doesn't take away from the Gameplay at all

    Yes, it's a 2D Sprite. However, with the Saturn sprites and Polygons are technically seen as the same thing.
    Please , that's such a cop-out it's laughable . The Saturn had issues anytime it had to handle a transparent effect in 3D against Polygon objects - It was a Hardware oversight .

    Again the point wasn't if it's as good as PS1 transparencies
    That's always the point I've made and it helped a lot of 3D PS games look better and that really helped with the unfair knocking of the Saturn . The Saturn can handle great 3D , just the PS with its better lighting and transparent effects looked more flashy and helped give the impression it was better . It what I've always said .

    It's explained in that video.
    I want you too . Forget about that video even if it backs up what I've been saying for years (even I think the light shining out of the windows in BR). How can the team have no issues with 'real' transparent effects for light trails and even make a whole stage completely and utterly transparent , but can't make the make basic looking , tiny 2D shadows transparent ?
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 09-16-2016 at 06:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post

    PC Engine's Out Run is technically inferior to the MD port
    It sounds better and at times has more objects at the sides of the screen , Both versions aren't great and its why I really wanted a Mega CD version and have said many many times . Look at After Burner II on the PC Eng it even scails in the the Aircraft carrier at the start of the game , something complelty missing from the MD version and the PC even handles more objects on the ground too and I'm not even a fan of the PC -Eng much myself

    It's sad that you can't even understand that makes a lot more sense to compare SNES MK3/UMK3 to MD MK3/UMK3 than the previous MK ports which were developed by different developers.
    That's just utter nonsense , I've always made the point its not always fair to compare the same games on different systems , not least with the Virtual Racing and Doom ports on the Saturn which were handled by different teams to the 32X versions . Its not like many of the Snes or Mega Drive games you list were made by the exact same teams or did the Final Fight Snes team also make Streets Of Rage II and so on .
    >
    Btw any Mega Drive game that handles the F-Zero effect at 60 fps with full 360 degree rotation ?
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  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Btw any Mega Drive game that handles the F-Zero effect at 60 fps with full 360 degree rotation ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    I don't know if you realize you sound like a broken record at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    So that's a no then . Thank you
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    I think TA is just a troll with his misunderstooding and (lets repeat again...) stubbornness, for example about Pixie Dust.
    Don't feed the troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peeteris View Post
    I think TA is just a troll with his misunderstooding and (lets repeat again...) stubbornness, for example about Pixie Dust.
    Don't feed the troll.
    Ok fanboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Ok fanboy
    I'm allright with that,
    even thought I don't play games nor I have/had SNES or Genesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peeteris View Post
    I have/had SNES or Genesis.

    You missed out, *both systems were great to make love too , if only the Saturn would have agreed to have kids with me

    * Sarcastic mode
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    I didn't had and don't have SNES/Genesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peeteris View Post
    I didn't had and don't have SNES/Genesis.
    Ok you're not a fanboy but you're a Troll . Only trolls say stuff about said systems or games they don't own, never played .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Ok you're not a fanboy but you're a Troll . Only trolls say stuff about said systems or games they don't own, never played .
    As I write you third time
    I am not "saying stuff about said systems or games [...]", I am writing about you and your manners, but you struggle to understand this for almost three days.

    Ironically, you ignored messages which I adressed to you, but you saw message that you're troll and which was adressed to everyone in this discussion except you.
    I guess you just feel good spending free time there to argue and convince, when it's actually not necessary. I read your posts from year 2015, and they are same as in this discussion.

    From now on, I'll accept everything you say,
    I surrender.

    You're the winner!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    In a recent interview to Sega-16, the developer of this port said:
    The Genesis didnít have enough memory to contain the levels, so we came up with a process where we could copy across new background graphics on the fly so that we could get everything in. The sprites were more of a challenge, but Tim worked really hard to faithfully reproduce the game with the limitations of the Genesis compared to the original arcade machine. We did have to cut back in some areas, but I think they were few and far between.
    Nice post, once again, Barone. But I'm curious, is that the same like what Yuji Naka said and meant going from Sonic 1 & 2 to 3 where he said he came with a new technique to make the levels larger then normally possible? Which basically sounds and looks (going by memory of messing with it's debug mode) like data streaming too for the background graphics.

    Also, I think the PCE devs especially had to learn to do a lot of streaming for graphics if I'm remembering this right.

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