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Thread: Why do people have issues with others not being fans of the SNES?

  1. #166
    Raging in the Streets
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    I heard once that Nintendo basically forced you into using Mode 7 on your games because the Megadrive couldn't do it.

    Figured it looks impressive, but most of the time it's annoying and gets in the way. Those Contra 3 levels are horrible.

  2. #167
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    The music always sounded off to me, in any version. The SNES version always sounded weird to me. FM seemed better to me I guess. Isn't all of Capcom's 16-bit stuff Mono too?
    No, CPS2 uses QSound.

    If you're talking about the consoles, I do know that the Capcom intro always pans in the opening for SNES games.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  3. #168
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    From a technical perspective, I don't see anything all that special about F-Zero.
    At the time there were far more complex racing engines out there. Floor rotation wasn't really something out of the Mega Drive's or even the Amiga's capacity.

    The thing about F-Zero, IMO, is that it had a really good design, excellent presentation and perfect timing in its release.
    It had the proper setting to make a flat scenario being perfectly acceptable.
    It had great speed sensation to support its setting.
    It had simple track design and handling mechanics to work with its speed sensation.
    It had the required AI to make the track design really challenging and compelling.
    It had distinguishable design for each AI-controlled vehicle.
    It had a great soundtrack to make all that a very pleasant experience.
    ...

    And for 1990, the year it was first released, the norm for arcade-ish racing games still was your average race-against-the-clock approach, with brain-dead traffic, indistinguishable opponents and real world/F1 world setting.
    In terms of consoles it was even worse since most of the racing games were also failing to provide the speed sensation you would find in the arcades.




    gasega68k's G-Zero requires on-cart RAM in order to run at 30 fps. But the quantity it requires would be perfectly fine for back in the days; just as the DSP chips used by many SNES games were also fine.

    IMO, F-Zero design could work fine for the most part with a regular line scrolling-based engine (if well adjusted); Mario Kart was the SNES game that really expanded on the role played by a track design which relies on rotation capabilities.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Holy Shit! Trekkies being a dipshit who never even bothers to cite sources, Barone pretending he is a responsible poster, and their buddy "Stu" the anti-Orbi guy troll don't bother me at all.
    Really? Thats why you've been away for 2 years and are still mad. Yeah I can tell how "not bothered" you are.

    Oh btw keep those personal attacks coming. Makes you look really classy and grown up .. not.
    Last edited by stu; 09-11-2016 at 11:59 PM. Reason: typos

  5. #170
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    IMO, F-Zero design could work fine for the most part with a regular line scrolling-based engine (if well adjusted); Mario Kart was the SNES game that really expanded on the role played by a track design which relies on rotation capabilities.
    HuZero shows how a traditional line scrolling version of F-Zero would look, although I think it features realtime scaling.

    https://youtu.be/HEp7niIP4Qw


    Too bad he didn't make a version with competitors to race against.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  6. #171
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    HuZero shows how a traditional line scrolling version of F-Zero would look, although I think it features realtime scaling.

    https://youtu.be/HEp7niIP4Qw


    Too bad he didn't make a version with competitors to race against.
    Or any sensation of speed.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  7. #172
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post

    So why shouldn't something like what homebrew people have done count? It's not like the hardware magically got better or something.
    Because they are using today's knowledge base and thinking . Its not really fair to compare that to what was being developed in the early 1990's . Some brilliant coder got Tomb Raider working on the LCD screen of his printer - any developer think that was possible when Tomb Raider was launching in 1996 ? . Totally different mindset , tools and compression .

    It's not like you couldn't do it with the tools back then either. It's just doing the approach in software. There are existing Genesis games from back then that do mode 7 like effects in software too.
    That's more like it and Puggsy a great tech demo of Mega Drive Gfx and coding skill . Play the Mega CD version and you'll see even more impressive effects thanks to Hardware support for Mode 7 effects, same goes for Son Of Chuck (Chuck Rock 2) . But you got to accpet that having Hardware support allows the developer to do more . Play the Mega Drive version of Striker and play the Snes version . You think Soul Star, Batman Returns 3D sections were possible on the Mega Drive ?
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  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gogogadget View Post
    I heard once that Nintendo basically forced you into using Mode 7 on your games because the Megadrive couldn't do it.
    That's silly and like saying NCL forced N64 developers to use anti-aliasing, Z-buffering, trilinear filtering to make Saturn games look worse , or SONY forced PS developers to use half transparencies to make Saturn games look rubbish . Using a system hardware built in effects to make games look good , is why various effects were put into the Hardware in the 1st place
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 09-12-2016 at 12:53 AM.
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  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    From a technical perspective, I don't see anything all that special about F-Zero.
    At the time there were far more complex racing engines out there. Floor rotation wasn't really something out of the Mega Drive's or even the Amiga's capacity.
    It was way better than any Mega Drive effect one seen at the time and also had full 360-degree movement at 60 fps , something which any similar Mega Drive game lacked at the time (Street Racer for example ) . Mode 7 was a nice effect for home systems at the time . Axelay was another game that used Mode 7 to look impressive . It just a shame that so little developers made use of the ASIC chip inside the Mega CD, even the Mega CD title screen was handling effects that blew Mode 7 out of the water and most Mega Drive software effects
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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  10. #175
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    You what I liked the SNES handle? Slow-motion.

    And did Axelay really use mode 7? I've been playing that game this past week, by the way. Looks like this one will be an unintentional 1cc because I need all the lives I can muster to brute force myself past that last stage and boss.

  11. #176
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    Axelay used mode 7 ? Where ?

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Because they are using today's knowledge base and thinking . Its not really fair to compare that to what was being developed in the early 1990's . Some brilliant coder got Tomb Raider working on the LCD screen of his printer - any developer think that was possible when Tomb Raider was launching in 1996 ? . Totally different mindset , tools and compression .
    That's a bit silly. If we're comparing the hardware anything goes. Nothing is stopping you from bringing up SNES homebrew.


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    But you got to accpet that having Hardware support allows the developer to do more .
    I never said it didn't. I simply said the Genesis has a strong enough CPU to brute force quite a bit of those effects through software to acceptable levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Play the Mega Drive version of Striker and play the Snes version .
    And? Other than the title screen I'm not really seeing anything that special. The Genesis version's effect actually looks a bit more interesting if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You think Soul Star, Batman Returns 3D sections were possible on the Mega Drive ?
    Did I say they were? The ASIC in the Sega CD is more advanced than mode 7 in the SNES too. Though it's limited if I remember correctly by drive and bus speed so it can't go over 20-30fps. All I said was for something like F-Zero, the Genesis technically can do the effect. Not as well as the SNES, but it can do it to an acceptable level.

    Mode 7 on the SNES didn't really impress me that much to be honest. You sacrifice all background layers for scaling and rotation. Mode 7 simply gives you Bowser in Super Mario World. The effect in F-Zero if I remember correctly is a combination of scaling/rotation and raster effects. Yeah it's interesting and it can do it at 60fps, but I kind of like the Genesis software implementation more simply because backgrounds aren't sacrificed to pull it off. And I find it much more impressive that the Genesis CPU is powerful enough to brute force that effect in software at playable levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thief View Post
    You what I liked the SNES handle? Slow-motion.

    And did Axelay really use mode 7? I've been playing that game this past week, by the way. Looks like this one will be an unintentional 1cc because I need all the lives I can muster to brute force myself past that last stage and boss.
    The Axelay effect is simply a VScroll exploit if I remember correctly from previous discussions. Sonic 3D Blast does it for the special stages:



    The Overdrive tech demo does it too @2:27:


    There's also this:
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 09-12-2016 at 01:26 AM.

  13. #178
    Road Rasher Folco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightrider View Post
    How much of that can be said for the general expansion of gamers though? That one console alone sold as much as all 3 16-bit consoles combined(taking into account what was licensed, but distributed by other companies). So it should stand to reason that if the percentage of RPG gamers stays the same, it now becomes a much larger number, especially on that one console, in which a much more vast majority now all share. Whereas genre fans would have been split by the likes of Final Fantasy on one console, and Phantasy Star on the other, in the previous generation(as well as whatever the Japanese liked on the PC Engine).
    Final Fantasy VII sold several times more than what FFVI did in US, it's not just a matter of a general expansion of gamers available because the increase outstripped the market expansion in US.

    As an aside one of the big misconception of the PS1/N64 generation is that PS1 sold more than 100M units mainly because PS1 targeted older gamers.
    This isn't true.
    Not only the concept is reverse that is game software makers could target older demographics because older gamers were already there, that is the ageing of the demographics ready to play on consoles was on a steady rise since late '70 due to the natural maturing of the medium and audience (which growing older stick to the medium while younger consumers joined the fry) but the big chunk of expansion didn't come from older gamers.
    If one look at the big regional breakout of shipment data for NES and PS1 provided by Nintendo and Sony, one can easily spot that the big chunk of the increase came from a regional expansion factor and not just demographics in relatively mature markets like US and Japan (especially the latter).
    The big expansion PS1 did that generation was due to target and maturing markets outside US and Japan, for example the many fractured european markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    or is it really just that Sony sucks and always has sucked? They actively put legitimate gaming companies out of business, how does this not offend you?
    Those legitimate gaming companies put themselves out of business.
    Aside from the many big mistakes committed by Sega, it was also unlucky that it was backing a trend in gaming which was rapidly declining.
    Last edited by Folco; 09-12-2016 at 05:25 AM.

  14. #179
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    No, CPS2 uses QSound.

    If you're talking about the consoles, I do know that the Capcom intro always pans in the opening for SNES games.
    I must have been thinking of the Genesis games then. Actually I know I was thinking of Sega's ports of Ghouls N Ghosts and Strider, but I am fairly certain the SF2 games and Punisher are Mono too.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

  15. #180
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    It kind of can do it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNGNh8JDcQ

    Now the SNES still does it better (Full resolution at 60fps vs half resolution at ~27-30fps on the Genesis) but the Genesis can technically do it.
    With way more memory than would have been economically feasible at the time, and still worse in every respect than the SNES.

    That's why I don't like any attempts at mode 7 on the Mega Drive, it's doomed to always be worse and it's only useful to create fanboy flamewars. How about you bring me some actual 3D instead? Both consoles suck spectacularly at it :v

    Quote Originally Posted by Gogogadget View Post
    I heard once that Nintendo basically forced you into using Mode 7 on your games because the Megadrive couldn't do it.
    Doubt it, but publishers probably did.

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