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Thread: Street Fighter II Remaster Project

  1. #31
    Master of Shinobi Pyron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
    Now, I don't have a Mega Drive for some time now, but I don't recall SSFII songs being as bad as I've seen on youtube. Would it be too much to ask for someone to point me to an accurate SSF2 soundtrack on youtube? Are the ones on Project 2612 accurate?
    SSF2 music its really bad, because that SF2 CE is much better to enjoy on MD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Its not all true...
    The beta though some songs get closer to the arcade version, but the vast majority of them lost much more instrumentation in the composition and are "poorer" overall sounding strange. Just listen to the music of Dhalsim, Guile, Blanka and others ..

    Here is a fair comparison, the video above that shows the music of the CE version is of poor quality sound because of the bad emulation.
    Yes, some beta tracks aren't great either, but I'd say overall most of them are much closer sounding to the CPS-1 renditions. SCE just seems to use really odd instruments at parts. Prime example is the lead instrument in Vega's theme. It's just odd sounding where as the Beta sounds much closer to the Arcade's instrumentation. Guile's theme on the Beta also has the correct pitch and instrumentation compared to SCE.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
    In this comparison Vega's final version is much better than the beta's!! It's almost perfect, really.

    Now, I don't have a Mega Drive for some time now, but I don't recall SSFII songs being as bad as I've seen on youtube. Would it be too much to ask for someone to point me to an accurate SSF2 soundtrack on youtube? Are the ones on Project 2612 accurate?
    I wouldn't say it's perfect at all. Yeah it has a bit more polish with all the channels not cutting out but I'd say the instrumentation is way off when compared to the Arcade. Again listen to the Arcade version. This video is from the official soundtrack, all tracks were sourced directly off the arcade boards:



    Honestly it baffles me why Capcom didn't just source their instruments from the Arcade version and then just do some tweaking with the PSG channels to make up for the loss of 2 channels going from the YM2151 to the YM2612. That's pretty much what Konami did with Hyperstone Heist with pretty decent results:




    Fans have done similar conversions in trackers using Arcade instruments and X68000 instruments and have gotten pretty decent results too:



  3. #33
    Wildside Expert paulojr_mam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Yes, some beta tracks aren't great either, but I'd say overall most of them are much closer sounding to the CPS-1 renditions. SCE just seems to use really odd instruments at parts. Prime example is the lead instrument in Vega's theme. It's just odd sounding where as the Beta sounds much closer to the Arcade's instrumentation. Guile's theme on the Beta also has the correct pitch and instrumentation compared to SCE.

    I wouldn't say it's perfect at all. Yeah it has a bit more polish with all the channels not cutting out but I'd say the instrumentation is way off when compared to the Arcade. Again listen to the Arcade version.
    IMO, you're nitpicking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
    IMO, you're nitpicking.
    Sorry if I like the CPS-1 renditions? Some renditions are ok in SCE, but they all play second fiddle to the CPS-1 renditions. The CPS-1 renditions seem to play to the strengths of FM synth, where as the SCE ones come off as this odd limbo of trying to sound like the SNES version, but still being FM synth. The punchiness of the Arcade and beta versions is gone, and the instrumentation is just off on most of the tracks.

    And the stupidity of it all is there's no good reason for this. The YM2612 and YM2151 are very similar chips and it's easy to use instruments from one on the other. Konami did this with their games and had excellent results, Capcom could have done the same thing but decided not to. And as a result we ended up with tracks that range from poor to ok to just plain wrong sounding. Here's another prime example of SCE falling flat on it's face with the beta sounding better, the Staff Roll:

    Arcade (49:06):


    Beta (51:51):


    Special Champion Edition 39:16:
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 05-19-2017 at 09:34 AM.

  5. #35
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    I think the sound in SFIISCE is good enough. Now the sound in SSFII is the one that could be fixed, especially considering it's a Street Fighter with more content and the graphics already had an impovement by Pyron, then by maxfarras and the voices were fixed by Stef. Too bad replacing instrument samples is so difficult. Dhalsim's song is especially bad. The others are serviceable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
    I think the sound in SFIISCE is good enough. Now the sound in SSFII is the one that could be fixed, especially considering it's a Street Fighter with more content and the graphics already had an impovement by Pyron, then by maxfarras and the voices were fixed by Stef. Too bad replacing instrument samples is so difficult. Dhalsim's song is especially bad. The others are serviceable.
    Both could use improvement. SCE could be improved using the CPS-1 instruments and rendition as a base. Super you would probably be best using the Sharp X68000 versions as a base and trying to extract the instruments from it. That port had all the tracks redone in FM Synth for the YM2151 and is what was used in future releases as the CPS-1 versions of the New Challengers themes:


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    Wildside Expert paulojr_mam's Avatar
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    Could be similar to Allianger cover.

    And SCE's could be on the same level as your Ken's cover. Even though I think it's near-perfect.

    AndI think it was intentional the way they've done it (SCE's ost). The beta does seem finished, I don't think they'd do much else sound-wise with that version. And SCE's final version is better, even if less similar to arcade. That's the thing, I think your measure of quality is by how equal to arcade it is. From what I hear, beta's version is more similar to arcade, but it isn't as good, because it seems softened. Probably they tried to make the sound feel stronger in final version, and IMO it worked. For example, the instruments in Vega's music are more different in the final version whereas in arcade and beta they are more similar. So there is more contrast between instruments in SCE. My opinion is that it's different but almost on par with arcade quality-wise.
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    That's the same one I linked earlier.

    And your argument for SCE makes no sense. The Arcade and beta have much more punch to them, making them sound stronger. SCEs in most cases sound weaker, kind of like they tried to make it sound like the SNES version. The staff roll is a prime example of that. Same with Vega's Theme, Balrog's Theme, etc. The only ones that I could see the argument for sounding stronger on SCE are Dhalsim and Blanka, because the Beta's are clearly unfinished trainwrecks. Guile and Ken I could also see that argument, though Guile's I'd say is a placebo effect due to it being in a different key. There's also the fact that the tempo is slower in most of SCEs renditions making them lose some of the energy they had in the Arcade and in the beta.

  9. #39
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    i hear it TU, and yeah they should have used a closer representation of the arcade versus trying to just use the snes version as their template. it sounds, off.

  10. #40
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    I say we get the sound driver hacked out and replaced with TmEE's superior one! I bet the Ruskies would do it if we asked nicely and bribed them with some more of the Ukraine!

  11. #41
    Master of Shinobi Pyron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Yes, some beta tracks aren't great either, but I'd say overall most of them are much closer sounding to the CPS-1 renditions. SCE just seems to use really odd instruments at parts. Prime example is the lead instrument in Vega's theme. It's just odd sounding where as the Beta sounds much closer to the Arcade's instrumentation. Guile's theme on the Beta also has the correct pitch and instrumentation compared to SCE.
    Yeah, but jsut be more faithfull dosen't means thats souns better, only the main instrument sounds more like the arcade on beta version, the composition is more simplistic the batery repetitive alonge the all tracks, CE music can be better of course but is much more well done than the beta in general.


    I wouldn't say it's perfect at all. Yeah it has a bit more polish with all the channels not cutting out but I'd say the instrumentation is way off when compared to the Arcade. Again listen to the Arcade version. This video is from the official soundtrack, all tracks were sourced directly off the arcade boards:

    This soundtrack is from remastered version, not the arcade original
    another thing... the arcade music uses alot of pcm samples from Oki OKI6295 to enhance the music, its not all FM, what is made in FM are present on MD, capcom did a excelente job doing simultaneos voices, pcm drums e some pcm sounding on BKG like in dhalsim stage. You know the limitations of MD so they did a exclent job in music. But if we can change it to tmee version i'm all in!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Yeah, but jsut be more faithfull dosen't means thats souns better, only the main instrument sounds more like the arcade on beta version, the composition is more simplistic the batery repetitive alonge the all tracks, CE music can be better of course but is much more well done than the beta in general.
    I'd personally say many of them do sound better. They have the energy and punchiness of the arcade, the instruments sound much closer to what they should, and overall it does a better job capturing the Arcade soundtrack. Is it perfect? No, it's a beta after all. It clearly needed some more polish, but the foundation for a good conversion was there. It seems for SCE they flushed that all down the toilet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    This soundtrack is from remastered version, not the arcade original
    another thing... the arcade music uses alot of pcm samples from Oki OKI6295 to enhance the music, its not all FM, what is made in FM are present on MD, capcom did a excelente job doing simultaneos voices, pcm drums e some pcm sounding on BKG like in dhalsim stage. You know the limitations of MD so they did a exclent job in music. But if we can change it to tmee version i'm all in!
    Remastered in the sense that they removed things like signal noise and what not. The audio is still sourced directly from the original arcade boards as stated from the included booklet. I should know, I own both the CD and Vinyl versions. I'd say it's probably the best source we have available for how the tracks should definitively sound. Especially considering how closely they worked with the original composer.

    And yes, the arcade board does use PCM samples, mostly for the percussion, voices, and sound effects. Again the Sharp X68000 is a YM2151 with 1 PCM channel and it pulls off a perfect conversion of the arcade. So I'd say that's proof that most of the instruments are FM Synth based. Yes reductions would need to be done for the Genesis, but you could still get something much closer to the arcade. Konami's conversion of Turtles in Time's music for Hyperstone Heist is proof of that. It's arcade board was again a YM2151 with an addtional PCM chip.

    While a new driver would be great, I wouldn't even say that's necessary after Stef's patch to fix the biggest issue with PCM mixing. It just needs better instruments and a more faithful conversion of the arcade that keeps the original keys and tempos intact.

  13. #43
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    I prefer the arcade, PC Engine and Genesis compositions and think that the PCE compositions are best. The SNES compositions would be fine (but not as good), if they didn't suffer from typical SNES issues.

    For instrument sound, the Genesis version is the best and SNES is worst. Most of the Genesis tracks have imperfections and balancing issues though. It sucks because it's so close to being the perfect definitive soundtrack.
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  14. #44
    Master of Shinobi Pyron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I'd personally say many of them do sound better. They have the energy and punchiness of the arcade, the instruments sound much closer to what they should, and overall it does a better job capturing the Arcade soundtrack. Is it perfect? No, it's a beta after all. It clearly needed some more polish, but the foundation for a good conversion was there. It seems for SCE they flushed that all down the toilet.
    Yes, i prefer the feeling of the beta but they ruined the major of tracks they need be more polished


    [/quote]
    Remastered in the sense that they removed things like signal noise and what not. The audio is still sourced directly from the original arcade boards as stated from the included booklet. I should know, I own both the CD and Vinyl versions. I'd say it's probably the best source we have available for how the tracks should definitively sound. Especially considering how closely they worked with the original composer.[quote]
    Yes is the original tracks with heavy tratments to sound better, belive me, i played this all my live on arcades and street fighter never sound like this on original hardware

    Again the Sharp X68000 is a YM2151 with 1 PCM channel and it pulls off a perfect conversion of the arcade. So I'd say that's proof that most of the instruments are FM Synth based.
    Did You have played the game on original x68k?
    The music is perfect but they sacrificed all sounds effects for it, the voices cancel each other, the fx effects are cutted and the game sounds too off for me...
    they did a good music but sacrificed all the rest because they use the pcm chip to make the music sounds like the original
    all games on x68k do this, fatal fury series suffers with the same insue.

    Example:

    So is not too simple like you said and we talking about of x68k, again, CE on genesis sounds very well looking to limitaions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Yes, i prefer the feeling of the beta but they ruined the major of tracks they need be more polished
    Yes, but even lacking polish most come off better than the SCE renditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Yes is the original tracks with heavy tratments to sound better, belive me, i played this all my live on arcades and street fighter never sound like this on original hardware
    All they did was a remastering where they clean up any noise, clicks, hisses, pops, etc. and what not. If that doesn't count as what the arcade version sounds like then we may as well say any Genesis recording with a Mega Amp or CCAM don't count either as it's pretty close to the same philosophy. Clean up the imperfections in the audio output to get down to what the raw audio is supposed to sound like, then run it through a good amplifier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Did You have played the game on original x68k?
    The music is perfect but they sacrificed all sounds effects for it, the voices cancel each other, the fx effects are cutted and the game sounds too off for me...
    they did a good music but sacrificed all the rest because they use the pcm chip to make the music sounds like the original
    Only because the X68000 only has one PCM channel with no way to do software mixing like you can do on the Genesis. However when no sound effects or voice clips are playing to cut it off, it sounds arcade perfect. Which is proof only one PCM channel is being used per track, mostly for percussion. It's not like Super Street Fighter 2 where it's all being done with Q-Sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    So is not too simple like you said and we talking about of x68k, again, CE on genesis sounds very well looking to limitaions
    But the Genesis can do software mixing, which the existing engine already does just fine now thanks to Stef's patch. PCM samples wouldn't be the issue needing cut, it would be FM channels. Which again, Konami's conversions in Hyperstone Heist are proof that even with those cuts, you could still get much closer to the Arcade sound than Capcom got with SCE.

    Compare any like for like track such as Sewer Surfin (8:36):

    (8:37):


    Yeah, there is still some loss in reverb and backup channels as well as some additional PCM samples, but overall it sounds spot on with the arcade. Why? Because Konami used the same instruments from the Arcade in the Genesis port and kept the tempo and instrumentation the same, filling in with PSG channels where they could. This is basically two different ports from arcade boards with similar sound hardware to the Genesis. One sounds almost spot on with the Arcade, the other does not. Clearly it's not a technical limitation of the Genesis since Konami didn't have trouble with it. Clearly Capcom felt the need to monkey with the instrumentation, tempo, and composition of the tracks to alter them for god knows why.

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