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Thread: Saturn RPGs

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorIng View Post
    I said the translation was something I was ok with. It's the game changes that are irksome because they are usually almost always to the game's detriment. These games are designed around certain parameters, and outside of the Telenet shit that WD started with on the PC Engine (stuff like Exile) which was broken to begin with, there was no need to appoint themselves master game designers because Vic and co. clearly weren't. There changes reek of amateur stupidity, if not outright hostility towards the source material.

    Or Albert Odyssey which "compensated" for the lowering the random battle rate by tripling the health of the boring boss fights, making some of them last for over an hour of repeating the same tactic over and over again.

    There's a reason why those Un-Worked Designs patches are so well-received, because they keep the thing that people more or less like (dated pop-culture jokes aside), and remove all the stupid shit Vic Ireland added to the games.
    It wasn't all bad. They improved loading times to and from battle in Albert a lot too, and I definitely appreciate the lowering of the encounter rate. And while I don't remember having any trouble with the length of the boss fights in it, they would seem to have learned their lesson there, since they did the opposite in Alundra.

    On a side note, I'm not sure how many of these changes they actually made themselves. For those who don't know, I believe Vic mentioned somewhere (don't remember if it was in the translation notes or a forum post) that they would send a list of changes they wanted to the original developer, who would then implement them for them. They couldn't do this any number of times however, so testing how the desired changes worked out and then tweaking further would have been hard or impossible. This was the wall they ran into with Exile, where the tweaks broke something and accidentally made the game much harder than anticipated. But they'd used up their quota, so to speak, and so they had to ship it like that. I dunno if this was just in the earlier days though, maybe they had their own people doing this stuff later on.

    As for Shining Wisdom, yeah, it was definitely disappointing. I do wonder though, how it would've turned out if they'd made it for MD or MCD or whatever they originally had in mind for it. Is there any information about that out there?

  2. #47
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion View Post
    It wasn't all bad. They improved loading times to and from battle in Albert a lot too, and I definitely appreciate the lowering of the encounter rate. And while I don't remember having any trouble with the length of the boss fights in it, they would seem to have learned their lesson there, since they did the opposite in Alundra.

    On a side note, I'm not sure how many of these changes they actually made themselves. For those who don't know, I believe Vic mentioned somewhere (don't remember if it was in the translation notes or a forum post) that they would send a list of changes they wanted to the original developer, who would then implement them for them. They couldn't do this any number of times however, so testing how the desired changes worked out and then tweaking further would have been hard or impossible. This was the wall they ran into with Exile, where the tweaks broke something and accidentally made the game much harder than anticipated.
    Yep, there is always that when you are handling someone else game, you have to have all changes approved. WD made some nice changes like 30% reduction in Combat, better loading times and simple stuff like using the L and R buttons on the menus. Its a shame some of their bigger plans like turning off spell animations, dying animations to speed up battles ever more, along with a host of other nice chnages were taken out at the last min. I also thought their Dragon Force and Iron Storm Saturn ports were brilliant too. Such a shame Bernie was such a dick head with the Saturn and upset one of SOA better 3rd party outfits for bringing games over from Japan, that most including SOA didn't touch.

    Who knows without Bernie silly E3 actions with WD, we might have had Grandia and Sukura Wars brought over to the West on the Saturn, to join the games WD already agreed the rights too, like with Battle Garrega, Thunder Force V, Lunar 1 and II and Sokuy... Thanks for nothing Bernie!!!
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  3. #48
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Clinton jokes?

  4. #49
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Clinton jokes?
    What the big fuss over that, when the Japanese version not doubt have references that only the Japanese would understand or appreciate for village talk. The main story, the main cast are all intact.
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  5. #50
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    Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.
    05/05/15

  6. #51
    Social Justice Ninja Master of Shinobi IrishNinja's Avatar
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    Saturn

    yeah, it's been said, but

    panzer dragoon saga
    dragon force
    shining: the holy ark
    shining force III: scenario 1-3 (now fully playable)
    magic kngiht rayearth
    albert odyssey i guess

    if grandia would've been translated, this would be a better JRPG lineup than lots of systems saw

    Quote Originally Posted by BonusKun View Post
    Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.
    which sucks, since i think SCD's OST is better than parts of the PSX remakes...but now im just wanting to replay the un-WD version if i can ever burn it right


  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    What the big fuss over that, when the Japanese version not doubt have references that only the Japanese would understand or appreciate for village talk. The main story, the main cast are all intact.
    No, actually, the Japanese version is pretty standard JRPG stuff. No weird pop culture references or poop jokes.

    It's actually quite shocking how far Working Designs went with the "translation". It's a bit of a stretch to even call it a translation.

    See here for some excellent comparisons:

    https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue...ences#Dialogue

    For example:

    Original Japanese translation: It takes magical power to become a knight... but isn't that kind of strange!?

    Working Designs version: GRUEL, GRUEL, THE MAGICAL SOUP, THE MORE YOU SLURP, THE MORE YOU POOP... HA HA HA HA HA....I JUST MADE THAT UP. FUNNY, HUH?
    Right...

  8. #53
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    ^Lol wtf.

    I always thought those were direct translations from the originals, turns out WD is just 7 years old. That certainly doesn't help the Saturn's case.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    No, actually, the Japanese version is pretty standard JRPG stuff. No weird pop culture references or poop jokes.

    It's actually quite shocking how far Working Designs went with the "translation". It's a bit of a stretch to even call it a translation.

    But the main story and cast of characters is there, Villiage talk is all a bit meaningless. I remember Skies of Arcadia SOA changed parts of the story, script, and idioms (I knew some of the staff translating that game) . If Working Designs had done that, they'll be uproar. It just seems to be very cool to hate on WD.
    What drastic changes did WD make with Iron Storm, Dragon Force compared to the Japanese versions?
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  10. #55
    Master of Shinobi bultje112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonusKun View Post
    Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.
    working designs fucked up so many games. vay is so terribly translated that in the first hour you encounter a cursed woman who can make you travel through the powers of her farts(!) she also killed her pets because of the smell of her farts...

    working designs fucked up so many games, often breaking the 4th wall for no reason as well, or trying to be 90s hip.

  11. #56
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
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    I'm in two minds about this, being a translator myself. On the one hand, the original writer's intent should be respected, and making stuff up generally only makes the script dumber/more cringey than it needs to be. On the other hand, some of these older games are written in a really dry way, without any hint of humour whatsoever, and it really makes one want to touch up the script. In this sense, I get some of the changes WD introduced. Still, I generally do not do it, no matter how boring the original script is, as I'm not a fan of overediting for the sake of overediting. Yeah, you need to localize certain things usually, but not rewrite them. A great example of a localization is the Yakuza series, they really nailed it there.
    Anyway, it's just a shame that mostly SEGA's platforms suffered because of this (and some PCE games). I believe Supper did some work on his Un-Worked Designs project, but mostly it just had to do with balancing, not the translations themselves - at least thus far.
    Last edited by cccmar; 04-21-2018 at 08:05 AM.

  12. #57
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    If the more or less literal fan translations out there are anything to go by, then I find those old scripts to be so excruciatingly dull as to make games virtually unplayable. For instance, I remember trying some of the retranslations of Chrono Trigger and eventually just giving up and going back to the official one. I don't care if they restore something that was lost in translation if it reads like crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion View Post
    If the more or less literal fan translations out there are anything to go by, then I find those old scripts to be so excruciatingly dull as to make games virtually unplayable. For instance, I remember trying some of the retranslations of Chrono Trigger and eventually just giving up and going back to the official one. I don't care if they restore something that was lost in translation if it reads like crap.
    That's probably just a case of poor translation. Most people don't want to read a "literal" translation (however you define it); they want to read a colloquial translation that flows like natural English (in other words, you shouldn't realize it's a translation).

    Many original translations were done very well in terms of readability, but for whatever reason they omitted or significantly changed content. Sometimes this just seemed to be at the whim of the translator without any obvious reason, or due to technical limitations on character length or something, which is why people are interested in more accurate translations. But a good re-translator does need to preserve the quality of the dialogue, which can often be more difficult than doing the straightforward translation.

    I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:



    Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you. Second, this is a great example of doing an almost word-by-word translation that just doesn't have the flow of the original. To me, nothing new was added here, but the flow of the dialogue is more cumbersome.

    But in the case of Shining Force, as I recall, significant details relating to the relationships of the characters were left out, which made some parts not make sense. In such cases, re-translating part of the script could really help out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    That's probably just a case of poor translation. Most people don't want to read a "literal" translation (however you define it); they want to read a colloquial translation that flows like natural English (in other words, you shouldn't realize it's a translation).

    Many original translations were done very well in terms of readability, but for whatever reason they omitted or significantly changed content. Sometimes this just seemed to be at the whim of the translator without any obvious reason, or due to technical limitations on character length or something, which is why people are interested in more accurate translations. But a good re-translator does need to preserve the quality of the dialogue, which can often be more difficult than doing the straightforward translation.

    I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:



    Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you. Second, this is a great example of doing an almost word-by-word translation that just doesn't have the flow of the original. To me, nothing new was added here, but the flow of the dialogue is more cumbersome.

    But in the case of Shining Force, as I recall, significant details relating to the relationships of the characters were left out, which made some parts not make sense. In such cases, re-translating part of the script could really help out.
    Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Sadly, many sound anything but natural. It's not just that the Japanese scripts were dry or lacking humor, they also sound incredibly clunky and completely unnatural to a western audience. Or at least that was the case in the olden days of fan translations, more recent ones I've tried, like Ys IV on PCE or G.O.D on SNES are excellent.

    I haven't tried the Shining Force fan translations yet (didn't even know there were any), but I imagine it would be easy to improve on the originals. Paraphrasing from memory:

    "You killed my teacher! How could you be so mean?"

    "Mean"? Really? That line makes it sound so trivial. Like he just stole his lunchbox or something.

    I never actually got as far as that example you give from Chrono Trigger in the one I've tried, but I think it's the same fanslation. And there are many, many more examples of that kind earlier in the game, and ones that are a lot worse. Made it a chore to read the dialogue. I caught myself actively rewriting every single line in my mind to put up with it.

    And I have to say, I much prefer the Western names for most/all of the characters, like the three gurus, Magus' three generals, and Magus' true name. Similarly, when I tried a Final Fantasy VI fanslation that 'restored' Terra's name to Tina, the first thing I did was undo that. I completely agree with Ted Woolsey's reasoning that while a western name like Tina might sound exotic to a Japanese audience, it absolutely doesn't to a western one. And if you want to capture that exotic quality then the name *has* to change.
    Last edited by Lion; 04-22-2018 at 02:03 PM.

  15. #60
    Raging in the Streets goldenband's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:



    Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you.
    Oy. Whenever I see one of those translations that leaves in honorifics, I pretty much assume that (a) the person behind it doesn't actually speak the language with real fluency and (b) is infatuated with some utterly distorted/fetishized idea of Japanese-ness -- the "over there they do things right" complex -- and wants their translation to feel exotic and "other" even if it didn't feel remotely that way in the original language.

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