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Thread: X-Men/Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter

  1. #16
    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It did many just bought the DC as short-term fix before the PS2 came out and many didn't think that SEGA would stick with the DC for the long run.
    I legitimately knew people who bought the PSx and they actually ended up buying the DC. I had one friend that I met in 94 and he was a huge Nintendo fanboy. He ended up getting a PSX and later on an N64 he would not touch the Saturn. So the last year of high school he gets a DC. I knew one person that had a Saturn and that was my brother's friend. Nobody that I knew from school that was a gamer from 95-99 owned a Saturn. From 97-98 I couldn't find any new Saturn titles in regular brick and mortar stores because the retail support was DEAD. A majority of my US Saturn titles were purchased used from a place called Hollywood Wholesale and they had legit good titles.


    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Capcom USA fully intended to bring X-Men vs. Street Fighter to the US. But they wanted Sega to handle the RAM cart, and Bernie Stolar said no dice. Yet another instance of Bernie intentionally putting no effort into the Saturn because he was in a hurry to have the system dead and over with.
    Could you honestly blame him outside a few hardcore fanboys nobody gave 2 shits about the Saturn anymore. Retailers weren't going to carry a dying system anymore. Yes Bernie wanted nothing to do with the Saturn and he wanted to start fresh with the DC. Look at launch of the Saturn compared to the DC and it's basically day and night. I think everyone can agree that the Saturn was one of the worst console launches ever while the DC was one of the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    Could you honestly blame him outside a few hardcore fanboys nobody gave 2 shits about the Saturn anymore. Retailers weren't going to carry a dying system anymore. Yes Bernie wanted nothing to do with the Saturn and he wanted to start fresh with the DC. Look at launch of the Saturn compared to the DC and it's basically day and night. I think everyone can agree that the Saturn was one of the worst console launches ever while the DC was one of the best.
    I absolutely blame him, he created those conditions. He took over in early 1997 right after the Saturn had sold over 500k units in the month of December 1996, and the system sold damn near zero units under his watch. That's not even much of an exaggeration. We had an old thread where we looked at the best available information on the sales. It was way too early for Sega to simply cut their losses and wait for the Dreamcast, yet he had no intention of even trying to sell the Saturn or maintain a good level of support. That was not a good move, neither in terms of helping the Dreamcast nor in the interim.

    It was certainly too late to turn the Saturn around into a major success. But it easily had more sales and more life in it. He turned the Saturn from a halfway respectable yet niche position into something resembling the Atari Jaguar. Sega had zero presence for two holiday sales periods. That's not good.


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    Framemeister Expert Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner Tower of Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    But NONE of that had any effect of the US sales of the DC which sold 500K in 2 weeks.
    Yes, the Dreamcast had a strong launch, but it did eventually fail. It was popular among gamers, but a common refrain I heard both in person and on the Internet was that people were nervous about buying the Dreamcast because of how Sega dumped the Saturn and 32X.

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    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tower of Power View Post
    Yes, the Dreamcast had a strong launch, but it did eventually fail. It was popular among gamers, but a common refrain I heard both in person and on the Internet was that people were nervous about buying the Dreamcast because of how Sega dumped the Saturn and 32X.
    Think about this, the Dreamcast broke every single US sales record in 99. The PS2 comes out with a bunch of crappy games and absolutely obliterates the DC sales. Do you honestly think that Sega supporting the Saturn a little longer would've mattered?

    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I absolutely blame him, he created those conditions. He took over in early 1997 right after the Saturn had sold over 500k units in the month of December 1996, and the system sold damn near zero units under his watch. That's not even much of an exaggeration. We had an old thread where we looked at the best available information on the sales. It was way too early for Sega to simply cut their losses and wait for the Dreamcast, yet he had no intention of even trying to sell the Saturn or maintain a good level of support. That was not a good move, neither in terms of helping the Dreamcast nor in the interim.

    It was certainly too late to turn the Saturn around into a major success. But it easily had more sales and more life in it. He turned the Saturn from a halfway respectable yet niche position into something resembling the Atari Jaguar. Sega had zero presence for two holiday sales periods. That's not good.
    See above reply LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    Think about this, the Dreamcast broke every single US sales record in 99. The PS2 comes out with a bunch of crappy games and absolutely obliterates the DC sales. Do you honestly think that Sega supporting the Saturn a little longer would've mattered?
    You can never be certain when you say "what if" but there's lots of reasons to think it would have been a better course of action and few reasons to think it would have been worse.

    It could have mattered more than you might think. Maybe EA would've been more inclined to support the Dreamcast, if the Saturn hadn't been dropped like that while EA was still supporting it. Maybe Camelot would've maintained a close relationship with Sega if the rest of Shining Force III had been translated. There is something to be said for maintaining good relations with game companies. There's a reason Stolar was fired on the eve of the DC launch. Some companies, notably Eidos, didn't want to deal with him and only decided to support the Dreamcast after he left. Imagine Tomb Raider 4 from the ground up for Dreamcast instead of a shitty afterthought port. By all accounts the DC hardware was good to work with, and its launch broke sales records in the West; yet its position with third parties, particularly Western third parties, was never great.


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    Raging in the Streets bultje112's Avatar
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    there is so much idiotic rambling in this topic. sega saturn had a 5% market share in 1997 in the western markets. in any normal world that means you are nothing. many retailers stopped carrying saturn stuff and you guys wanted games in late 98 and 99? like any sane retailer would carry that.

    bernie stolar did absolutely everything right he could with saturn given sega's terrible financial situation and was responsible for the insane dreamcast launch.

  7. #22
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    there is so much idiotic rambling in this topic. sega saturn had a 5% market share in 1997 .
    That's more than the Mega CD had and yet SEGA backed that till the end. SEGA had to do something from 97 to 99, it was screwed no matter what it did, it was going to lose money. I agree Bernie did one hell of a job getting everything right for the DC, after being handed such a terrible card from Tom and co. Sadly he upset the one corp that was backing SEGA America and looked to bring some of Saturn Japan better software to the West and if Sega Europe can bring Deep Fear to the West on its own, Bernie and SEGA America should have brought over the likes of Grandia, Marvel Vs Street Fighter and a few more gems.
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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    Think about this, the Dreamcast broke every single US sales record in 99. The PS2 comes out with a bunch of crappy games and absolutely obliterates the DC sales. Do you honestly think that Sega supporting the Saturn a little longer would've mattered?
    It would have to the people who bought the system and the SEGA diehards the group of people SEGA should look after 1st. Its a shame Bernie wasn't in charge of the Saturn launch, he would have done a much better job than Tom imo
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tower of Power View Post
    Yes, the Dreamcast had a strong launch, but it did eventually fail. It was popular among gamers, but a common refrain I heard both in person and on the Internet was that people were nervous about buying the Dreamcast because of how Sega dumped the Saturn and 32X.
    There was a lot of that, but also one has to say SEGA Europe and Japan let SEGA America down. If the DC had done as good in the EU or Japan as it did in the USA it might have been a different story, but to be honest, SONY had so much hype, so little scrutiny from the press and then the killer E3 demo of Metal Gear Solid II that pretty much killed the dream.

    SEGA Europe were run by a complete bunch of numpties in the DC days, who just screwed up everything from the game cases, wasting the PR budget on every football team in Europe (while not making sure to have a good football game) Delaying Virtual Tennis for the US open rather than Wimbledon and best of all, a huge PR TV spend on promoting Soul Calibur (the best looking game around at the time) by showing someone sending a email via the DC network, rather than footage of the game running. Beyond hopless
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    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    You can never be certain when you say "what if" but there's lots of reasons to think it would have been a better course of action and few reasons to think it would have been worse.

    It could have mattered more than you might think. Maybe EA would've been more inclined to support the Dreamcast, if the Saturn hadn't been dropped like that while EA was still supporting it. Maybe Camelot would've maintained a close relationship with Sega if the rest of Shining Force III had been translated. There is something to be said for maintaining good relations with game companies. There's a reason Stolar was fired on the eve of the DC launch. Some companies, notably Eidos, didn't want to deal with him and only decided to support the Dreamcast after he left. Imagine Tomb Raider 4 from the ground up for Dreamcast instead of a shitty afterthought port. By all accounts the DC hardware was good to work with, and its launch broke sales records in the West; yet its position with third parties, particularly Western third parties, was never great.
    EA lost a good chunk of money by not supporting the DC. And didn't EA go to Sega and wanted to be the sole company that made sports games on the DC? Camelot made a few PSX games during that era and after there long involvement they went to Nintendo to mainly do Mario Sport games. Sure there are a handful of Golden Sun games. But I highly doubt they had specific issues with Sega Of America only releasing 1 Scenario here. Stolar was mainly fired for his insistence of the DC being 199 with the modem. SoJ wanted it to be 249. I was more interested in Tomb Raider 2 for the Saturn rather than what the DC got. The company that I specifically remember having issues with was Working Designs and that was a piss match with Bernie and Vic. Vic said he would never work with Sega as long as Bernie was there. Well he got fired and NEVER came back. And his BS excuse was the DC software sales. Which was ironic coming from a guy that catered mainly to niche systems. Besides Nintendo has done fairly well without good 3rd party support for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

  11. #26
    End of line.. ESWAT Veteran gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    there is so much idiotic rambling in this topic. sega saturn had a 5% market share in 1997 in the western markets. in any normal world that means you are nothing. many retailers stopped carrying saturn stuff and you guys wanted games in late 98 and 99? like any sane retailer would carry that.

    bernie stolar did absolutely everything right he could with saturn given sega's terrible financial situation and was responsible for the insane dreamcast launch.
    Exactly!

    You'd think that Tom Kelinske already looking for another job in early 1996 wasn't a big enough hint that he saw the hardware as being way too expensive to market. Bernie pretty much told SOJ what Tom was already trying to tell them, the hardware was way too expensive to compete.

    Bernie gets painted as the bad guy, yet the launch of the Dreamcast in North America was the most successful to date. And even Japan couldn't market the console right in their own territory.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  12. #27
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    EA lost a good chunk of money by not supporting the DC. And didn't EA go to Sega and wanted to be the sole company that made sports games on the DC? Camelot made a few PSX games during that era and after there long involvement they went to Nintendo to mainly do Mario Sport games. Sure there are a handful of Golden Sun games. But I highly doubt they had specific issues with Sega Of America only releasing 1 Scenario here. Stolar was mainly fired for his insistence of the DC being 199 with the modem. SoJ wanted it to be 249. I was more interested in Tomb Raider 2 for the Saturn rather than what the DC got. The company that I specifically remember having issues with was Working Designs and that was a piss match with Bernie and Vic. Vic said he would never work with Sega as long as Bernie was there. Well he got fired and NEVER came back. And his BS excuse was the DC software sales. Which was ironic coming from a guy that catered mainly to niche systems.
    EA made a phony offer that they knew Stolar/Sega would reject. Stolar had bought out Visual Concepts to relaunch the Sega Sports lineup and EA knew this. It was way too big of an investment to let go to waste; it was a nonstarter. EA doesn't make strongarm demands like that for any other system, and this is a company that even published a few N-Gage games. So why did they do that? I am pretty well convinced that the blame for EA's motivation lies with Bernie. Or at least a large part of it.

    Bernie was absolutely right to insist on a 56k modem. I don't think he was right on the price point. If he had focus groups or something telling him it wasn't a good enough value for $249, it would've been a better move to keep the price and improve the package. Maybe build vibration into the controller and include a VMU in the box. It did feel like they were nickel and diming.

    Vic Ireland was just being stubborn, however in my view his grievances with Bernie were legitimate. His later excuse was bullshit and Vic is a bit petty, but he wouldn't have been making up bullshit excuses if not for the way Bernie had acted. That may sound like I'm letting old Vic off the hook. I really feel like the onus is more on Bernie to not be shitty to developers and to cultivate good relationships, than it is on Vic Ireland (or anyone else) to suck it up and support Sega because they just "should".

    Besides Nintendo has done fairly well without good 3rd party support for years.
    That's true, but Sega isn't Nintendo and can't get away with what Nintendo can. Sega put out lots of kick-ass games on the DC, but that just wasn't good enough. The Dreamcast needed to be the lead platform for more high production value, hype generating games from third parties. Of the few it did have, almost all of them were from Japanese third parties, which is weird considering the system did worse in Japan. Western developers just threw ports at it, if they touched it at all. Many of those ports are good additions to the system's library, but they're not system sellers. Sega couldn't even get straight ports to release on the same day as the Playstation (or PC) versions. It's not a good look getting something like Tony Hawk months after the Playstation version, after the game's initial hype/interest has died down. And I've never seen anything claiming Sony was even trying to push developers to make all their games Playstation timed exclusives against the DC; it simply wasn't a priority for most. Most of the time the delays weren't even justified with any new content or a major visual overhaul or anything.

    Soul Calibur, RE Code Veronica, Grandia II, DOA2 -- these were good. Sega needed more efforts like these. And that's whether from the West or more from Japan, but Sega did a worse job with Western developers, even though they didn't deal with Japanese developers as well as they could have either. The Dreamcast itself didn't suffer from any fatal flaws. It didn't have major hardware or development issues, it didn't have the N64's cartridge problem as GD-ROMs weren't expensive, Sega didn't have Nintendo's bone-headed policies and restrictions. Yet the Dreamcast's third party support was never hugely better than the N64's. The potential was there, there were no insurmountable roadblocks, they just failed. You can blame Peter Moore for not turning the situation around, but it was Bernie who made the situation that way from the start.

    Coming back around to the OP (heh), obviously the non-release of X-Men vs. SF didn't kill Sega's working relationship with Capcom. But it's illustrative of Bernie Stolar's attitudes curtailing support rather than encouraging it, and alienating other companies.


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  13. #28
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post

    Bernie gets painted as the bad guy, yet the launch of the Dreamcast in North America was the most successful to date. And even Japan couldn't market the console right in their own territory.
    Swings and roundabouts. SEGA Japan with the Saturn had one of the most Succesful launches ever in Japan and also totally outclassed and outsold SONY for 2 years too, something which SEGA America was never able to do. This system being too expensive is cop out too, the PS3 was way more expensive than the 360 yet it sold millions and ever more than the 360 despite being always being more expensive and the most difficult machine to develop to the 360. Bernie naild one part right and thats how when launching a console you focus on your development and PR on just one system and go for, not like TOM how thought trying to sell and market a multidtue of systems was the way to win. Mind you nobody beats SEGA Europe when it comes to SEGA with the MS and Mega Drive had the biggest share of the market and never allowed Nintendo to outseller either


    Vic Ireland was just being stubborn, however in my view his grievances with Bernie were legitimate
    Yes there were and also it wasn't just WD that stopped working for SEGA becasue of Bernie but also Dave Perry went public saying he would no longer support SEGA becasue of Bernie, bit a shame as Wild 9 was meant to be the looker on the Saturn
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 02-09-2018 at 03:23 AM.
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  14. #29
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    EA lost a good chunk of money by not supporting the DC. And didn't EA go to Sega and wanted to be the sole company that made sports games on the DC? Camelot made a few PSX games during that era and after there long involvement they went to Nintendo to mainly do Mario Sport games. Sure there are a handful of Golden Sun games. But I highly doubt they had specific issues with Sega Of America only releasing 1 Scenario here. Stolar was mainly fired for his insistence of the DC being 199 with the modem. SoJ wanted it to be 249. I was more interested in Tomb Raider 2 for the Saturn rather than what the DC got. The company that I specifically remember having issues with was Working Designs and that was a piss match with Bernie and Vic. Vic said he would never work with Sega as long as Bernie was there. Well he got fired and NEVER came back. And his BS excuse was the DC software sales. Which was ironic coming from a guy that catered mainly to niche systems. Besides Nintendo has done fairly well without good 3rd party support for years.
    And SEGA Europe lost a ton of sales thanks to no FIFA on the DC imo. Camelot were right to dump SEGA, SEGA Japan treated them pretty badly and didn't even invite them to submit a DC game proposal when SOJ were having a private event with perspective DC developers and that's when Camelot dropped SEGA. Sad about Tomb Raider II as the programmer of the Saturn version Jason Gosling told EDGE the Saturn version was looking incredible and enjoying using the then new SGL, shame SONY saw what the game could be and bought exclusive rights
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    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
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    TA, The PS3 like the PS2 before it was one of the cheapest BR players out there and one of the best. But I don't remember it taking off the same way the PS2 initially did. Also it took the 360 years to move a million units in Japan. As bad as the Mega Drive did in Japan it still sold better than the 360. As for the Saturn it was not only the high price but, lack of games and lack of availability.

    j_factor, Ireland ended up having publishing issues with Sony so you can't just say Stolar was completely in the wrong when Ireland ended up blatantly lying to DC fans. Karma pretty much came back and bit him in the ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

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