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Thread: Did Billy Mitchell cheat with his high score for Donkey Kong?

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    Default Did Billy Mitchell cheat with his high score for Donkey Kong?



    It makes you wonder if his high score sent to Walter Day on The King of Kong: Fist full of Quarters movie, was a score he made while using MAME.
    Last edited by gamevet; 02-10-2018 at 01:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    It makes you wonder if his high score sent to Walter Day on the Fist full of Quarters movie, was a score he made while using MAME.
    Yes, I think that specifically is one of the scores in question.

    I've been following this news somewhat closely. I have no idea why - I'm not at all interested in Twin Galaxies, but it's really interesting how Billy Mitchell, Todd Rogers (whose long-standing records were just tossed due to the Dragster record being impossible to actually achieve) and probably other members of their group of old guard record holders manipulated and cheated to stay on top.

    Billy Mitchell actually responded to the accusations by saying that yes, the tape shows MAME, but that the tape is not authentic. Which is bullshit, because the tape matches what was recorded at the time and appeared in King of Kong:

    https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/08/b...nt-make-sense/

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    Good job Thief is on a ban right now. He'd probably tell us this meant that he worked for the (Pac) Man and was using high score distractions to divert us from the truth!

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    It is possible, but at the same time it could be accusations tied to the Todd Rogers event. So this could be like the "#MeToo" of videogames.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GriskaGyoran View Post
    It is possible, but at the same time it could be accusations tied to the Todd Rogers event. So this could be like the "#MeToo" of videogames.
    I don't really get what you mean.

    The evidence is pretty overwhelming here. Billy Mitchell sent what turns out to be a screen capture of spliced-together MAME to Walter Day, and his one live witness was none other than... confirmed cheater Todd Rogers.

    It's not a coincidence that after Todd Rogers was caught, people are taking a closer look at his cohort's records. Twin Galaxies under new owner Jace Hall is also trying to clean house.

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    I've always wondered why he was given more consideration and leeway compared with other competitors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    I don't really get what you mean.

    The evidence is pretty overwhelming here. Billy Mitchell sent what turns out to be a screen capture of spliced-together MAME to Walter Day, and his one live witness was none other than... confirmed cheater Todd Rogers.

    It's not a coincidence that after Todd Rogers was caught, people are taking a closer look at his cohort's records. Twin Galaxies under new owner Jace Hall is also trying to clean house.
    Ah, I only heard of this in passing, I didn't know details. I didn't know that Todd Rogers was involved in this one too. Todd Rogers is an interesting case though. It was only about a year ago that people started taking notice of him for some random video some guy made. And that video was more praising Todd Rogers, but then people started putting 2 and 2 together and decided Todd Rogers was bullshit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GriskaGyoran View Post
    It is possible, but at the same time it could be accusations tied to the Todd Rogers event. So this could be like the "#MeToo" of videogames.
    I've always thought something was fishy, when I saw that strange score glitch on the tape (King of Kong) Billy sent to Day. Day even said something about it to Billy while he was on the phone and then proceeded to call it the new record. It was a pretty shitty way to treat Wiebe, who had sent in a video and was asked to make it official at the arcade.
    Last edited by gamevet; 02-10-2018 at 07:30 PM.
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    Wiebe came across as a genuinely nice guy but a push over which makes me think that's why he was treated differently than HHH.

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    Most of those guys in The King of Kong looked like pushovers. Remember that one dork that said: "I don't drink. I don't smoke. I just play videogames." Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's never been laid either.

    Billy is just one of those guys with a strong personality, and I'm pretty sure he even had Walter Day (looked like a pushover too) convinced he was the god of gaming. It's funny when you see the picture from Life magazine with all of the best arcade gamers in the world, and there's Billy looking like he's stoned, with hickeys on his neck from the girl he probably banged the night before.
    Last edited by gamevet; 02-11-2018 at 08:19 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    The evidence is pretty overwhelming here. Billy Mitchell sent what turns out to be a screen capture of spliced-together MAME to Walter Day, and his one live witness was none other than... confirmed cheater Todd Rogers.
    Anyone is capable of being a cheat, but there's a couple aspects of this whole thing that don't really jive with me. It's easy to dogpile on Mitchell and say he's full of shit, but there's a lot of people ready to wholeheartedly accept accusations against Mitchell no matter how unfounded (or because they didn't like his semi-fictional representation in a 10 year old docudrama).

    If any of this in a nutshell is wrong, please correct me. Person A gives Person B a few VHS tapes that are allegedly 3 of Mitchell's high score submissions (one of which is supposed to be the submitted VHS in King of Kong). Person B notices that due to a display bug the gameplay is from MAME. Person C states that additionally the gameplay is a faked piecemeal patchwork of multiple attempts simply because some scores that are assigned at random seem to be a bit too consistently high. Mitchell supposedly now lied about it being arcade gameplay and also cheated to get a high score.

    Mitchell responds and says the tapes aren't his and additionally says at least one original tape exists showing a shot of the cabinet and witnesses around him.

    If Mitchell's response of "those ain't my tapes" is grasping at straws nonsense, why not prove it false immediately? Right off the bat I'd have said "Look, here's the label, here's your handwriting, it's the same on all three tapes, here's the envelope they came in". That would be damning evidence and is a hell of a lot easier than analyzing frame-by-frame girder displays or instances random number generator scorepoints. If the tapes are unlabeled, or the tapes are 2nd, 3rd, or nth generation dubs, that only lends more credence to Mitchell's defense. If the tapes have no labels you only have one person's word against another as to where they came from. If they're not the originals, you could easily chalk up bad spots and video anomalies to shitty dub jobs.

    I also find it weird how that the accusation that it's a spliced together fake MAME run is made out to be technical child's play, as if anyone could do it since it takes such little effort. Yet, the idea that the tapes are "faked" in order to discredit/slander Mitchell are deemed completely ludicrous, nobody on Earth has the technical knowledge or knowhow to stitch together a MAME tape with the same actions as those seen in King of Kong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
    Anyone is capable of being a cheat, but there's a couple aspects of this whole thing that don't really jive with me. It's easy to dogpile on Mitchell and say he's full of shit, but there's a lot of people ready to wholeheartedly accept accusations against Mitchell no matter how unfounded (or because they didn't like his semi-fictional representation in a 10 year old docudrama).

    If any of this in a nutshell is wrong, please correct me. Person A gives Person B a few VHS tapes that are allegedly 3 of Mitchell's high score submissions (one of which is supposed to be the submitted VHS in King of Kong). Person B notices that due to a display bug the gameplay is from MAME. Person C states that additionally the gameplay is a faked piecemeal patchwork of multiple attempts simply because some scores that are assigned at random seem to be a bit too consistently high. Mitchell supposedly now lied about it being arcade gameplay and also cheated to get a high score.

    Mitchell responds and says the tapes aren't his and additionally says at least one original tape exists showing a shot of the cabinet and witnesses around him.

    If Mitchell's response of "those ain't my tapes" is grasping at straws nonsense, why not prove it false immediately? Right off the bat I'd have said "Look, here's the label, here's your handwriting, it's the same on all three tapes, here's the envelope they came in". That would be damning evidence and is a hell of a lot easier than analyzing frame-by-frame girder displays or instances random number generator scorepoints. If the tapes are unlabeled, or the tapes are 2nd, 3rd, or nth generation dubs, that only lends more credence to Mitchell's defense. If the tapes have no labels you only have one person's word against another as to where they came from. If they're not the originals, you could easily chalk up bad spots and video anomalies to shitty dub jobs.

    I also find it weird how that the accusation that it's a spliced together fake MAME run is made out to be technical child's play, as if anyone could do it since it takes such little effort. Yet, the idea that the tapes are "faked" in order to discredit/slander Mitchell are deemed completely ludicrous, nobody on Earth has the technical knowledge or knowhow to stitch together a MAME tape with the same actions as those seen in King of Kong.
    Did you read this response which I posted above? https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/08/b...nt-make-sense/

    I think it addresses this pretty well. Barring some ultra-conspiracy to discredit Billy Mitchell that has been stewing for 10+ years, the tapes are authentic.

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    The tapes really aren't what's the big deal here. It's the content that has been exposed to be gameplay from MAME instead of the real hardware.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Did you read this response which I posted above?
    I had not read that particular article until just now. While it features most of the same quotes that have been posted verbatim all over, the paragraph on the 1.062 was new to me, and it took me a minute to really soak in what it said.

    You've got a record setting live performance in front of and taped by both audience members and former Twin Galaxies Referee Sroka. Nobody's saying Mitchell cheated/savestated his way to victory because they saw it firsthand, but it's fraudulent because it was on MAME and not real hardware.

    And that's...... whose fault exactly? Is that stupidity and ineptitude or proof of a nefarious plot? I'm assuming the scene wasn't Mitchell wasn't hunched over a desktop PC and all in attendance signing a NDA to never reveal the truth. So the event organizers had a nice, fairly expensive DK cabinet with a shitty MAME setup shoved inside, nobody bothered to either open the cabinet and peek inside, nobody saw the thing bootup? Or is it all the people that *did* know were on the take and conspiring in the scheme? Did Mitchell go rogue and secretly bring his own cladestine MAME cabinet to somehow give him an edge? Or did both Mitchell and TG alumni sit around a conference table, deflating footballs and plotting how to get this MAME cabinet on the showroom floor without people noticing?

    If Mitchell's a liar, then he's a liar, I've got no dog in the fight. But the scenario mentioned above, if done not out of just stupidity/laziness but sincerely designed for ill gotten gains, has so many variables you can't just single out one person and say it's their fault. Hell, the situation might even be Mitchell went to what he thought was a legitimate event and thought he really did set a record on real hardware. Maybe the organizers couldn't be bothered with a real PCB and didn't want to tell anyone, kept their mouth shut, and now Mitchell is the patsy for their own cut-cornering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
    I had not read that particular article until just now. While it features most of the same quotes that have been posted verbatim all over, the paragraph on the 1.062 was new to me, and it took me a minute to really soak in what it said.

    You've got a record setting live performance in front of and taped by both audience members and former Twin Galaxies Referee Sroka. Nobody's saying Mitchell cheated/savestated his way to victory because they saw it firsthand, but it's fraudulent because it was on MAME and not real hardware.

    And that's...... whose fault exactly? Is that stupidity and ineptitude or proof of a nefarious plot? I'm assuming the scene wasn't Mitchell wasn't hunched over a desktop PC and all in attendance signing a NDA to never reveal the truth. So the event organizers had a nice, fairly expensive DK cabinet with a shitty MAME setup shoved inside, nobody bothered to either open the cabinet and peek inside, nobody saw the thing bootup? Or is it all the people that *did* know were on the take and conspiring in the scheme? Did Mitchell go rogue and secretly bring his own cladestine MAME cabinet to somehow give him an edge? Or did both Mitchell and TG alumni sit around a conference table, deflating footballs and plotting how to get this MAME cabinet on the showroom floor without people noticing?

    If Mitchell's a liar, then he's a liar, I've got no dog in the fight. But the scenario mentioned above, if done not out of just stupidity/laziness but sincerely designed for ill gotten gains, has so many variables you can't just single out one person and say it's their fault. Hell, the situation might even be Mitchell went to what he thought was a legitimate event and thought he really did set a record on real hardware. Maybe the organizers couldn't be bothered with a real PCB and didn't want to tell anyone, kept their mouth shut, and now Mitchell is the patsy for their own cut-cornering.
    With all due respect, I'm not quite sure you understand the situation.

    The 1.062 record was not done before a live audience. It was recorded the same way as the others (through what was thought at the time to be direct capture from the arcade board). Billy Mitchell held a press conference in 2010 to announce the new record, which is seen here:



    The tape that Billy Mitchell himself provided at the press conference, showing his 1.062 record run, is a recording of MAME, as indicated by the way the level appears:



    An audience member also recorded Billy's video, and that confirms that it is MAME:



    Do you really think somebody switched out Mitchell's tape at the press conference in 2010 without his knowing and replaced it with a MAME recording of the exact same score he claims to have gotten?

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