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Thread: DVD Dreamcast / Sega Master System wasn't that big of a seller.

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tower of Power View Post
    I thought the Dreamcast controller was excellent from an ergonomics and precision perspective. The analog stick, analog triggers, and buttons all felt great, much better than the Playstation stuff.

    At the time, no one was really complaining about not having a second analog stick. It wasn't until after the Dreamcast was dead that the two analog stick control scheme became standardized, so much like the DVD played, I don't think having a second analog stick on the controller would have been helpful. Plus, it's interesting to see all the different control schemes that were tried at the time.

    The biggest thing missing from the controller at the time was probably a "select" button. Everything else seemed OK, but I think I remember not having a select button hampered ports a lot.

    Next up, "bumpers" like the Xbox 360 controller would have been useful.

    Everyone has standardized on four face buttons, so I don't think Sega was wrong to do that. I have heard complaints a lot from gamers, especially fighting game fans, that there should have been six face buttons. And, for what it's worth, I also at the time wished for six face buttons. But I think "the casuals" prefer four, which is why the industry has standardized on it. There are a couple of six button pads available for Dreamcast if you're so inclined, so there is the option.
    Theres tons of instances where a second analog stick would've been useful. I've never played a FPS Dreamcast game, but it'd definitely be useful there. In Shenmue you control Ryo using the D-pad, thats not optimal. In Sonic Adventure, a second analog stick would've been much better than using the triggers to control the camera.


    Yes, if the Dreamcast controller had 360 shoulder buttons then I don't think 6 buttons would be necessary. Either one would've worked.
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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    Um, hello!? Virtual On desperately needed a second analog stick.



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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Um, hello!? Virtual On desperately needed a second analog stick.
    Not really as the Arcade game used digital sticks and the 1st game controlled well with the Saturn pad. To me the DC pad really needed to be like the Saturn 3D controller with 6 face buttons and really SEGA should have also given it a 2nd analog stick too.
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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Virtual On with the Saturn digital pad is perfectly doable. VOOT's control scheme kinda sucks, and is a good example of the Dreamcast controller not having enough buttons.

    Hard to say how much the DVD format could have helped the Dreamcast. But, and I know I've said this like 6 times in other threads, I don't think the strategy of undercutting Sony on price was a good one to begin with. Both systems that gen that launched at $200 sold worse than both systems that launched at $300. The Gamecube did okay for a while but then it crashed pretty hard late in the generation. It got its last sales bump when the price dropped to $100 and then it had nowhere to go. The Dreamcast dropped to $150 in late 2000. You look at a console that's $150 in 2000, and it's hard to see that console still being around in 2004.

    When you're the one launching earlier than your competition, I think what you should be going for is staying power. Which you don't get by being cheap. Whether they would get more benefit from the DVD format or other upgrades instead, I'm not sure. They also didn't need to launch so early in Japan.


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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Sega was scared to death of pricing themselves off the market, considering what happened with the Saturn's launch price. Same with making it as easy to develop for as possible (to the point of including Windows CE!). They tried to make a PS1 2.0 while Sony was busy making something crazy.

    Ultimately, if you go into the game desperate, from a position of weakness like that, you're not getting far...
    Last edited by Kamahl; 02-21-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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    VA1LT CHIP ENABLED Master of Shinobi OverDrone's Avatar
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    The Dreamcast digital crosspad is defo the worst aspect of the controller. At least the dreaded Dualshock would last a lot longer, the DC one felt like it could kick the bucket at any time (as mine eventually did). Given the prevalence of 2D fighters and shooters being ported at the time, it didn't take long for me to seek out a couple of the official sticks.

    A disappointing step backwards from SEGA's previous pads.
    Last edited by OverDrone; 02-21-2018 at 01:58 PM.

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    Framemeister Expert Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner Tower of Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Theres tons of instances where a second analog stick would've been useful. I've never played a FPS Dreamcast game, but it'd definitely be useful there. In Shenmue you control Ryo using the D-pad, thats not optimal. In Sonic Adventure, a second analog stick would've been much better than using the triggers to control the camera.


    Yes, if the Dreamcast controller had 360 shoulder buttons then I don't think 6 buttons would be necessary. Either one would've worked.
    You are totally right, knowing what we know now, a second analog stick would have been very useful. However, we're speaking with the gift of hindsight, getting to look back 17-18 years with everything we know now about how games should control. Back then, movement and camera controls in 3D were not totally solved like they are now. Now, pretty much every game has the same control scheme, with character movement on the left analog stick, and camera movement on the right. There's no guarantee that in Sonic Adventure the second analog stick would have been used to control the camera, like we'd expect now, or if it did, that it would control as expected. Just look at some of the games that were coming out a the time. Even on PS2, in Grand Theft Auto 3, the right analog stick throws your character into a first person view. I think that's why Sega didn't include it in the first place, they just didn't see it as something necessary. At the time, the solution to Virtual On's controls was to import a set of twin sticks, people weren't really thinking about dual analog control schemes. It was a period of experimentation, you still had games coming out like Ape Escape and Stretch Panic that were using the second analog stick for totally different things.

    It would be interesting to go through a do a history of the evolution of control schemes in 3D games. Maybe someone out there with a YouTube channel should steal this idea.
    Last edited by Tower of Power; 02-21-2018 at 02:09 PM.

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    Master of Shinobi Mega Drive Bowlsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    Sega was scared to death of pricing themselves off the market, considering what happened with the Saturn's launch price. Same with making it as easy to develop for as possible (to the point of including Windows CE!). They tried to make a PS1 2.0 while Sony was busy making something crazy.

    Ultimately, if you go into the game desperate, from a position of weakness like that, you're not getting far...
    Absolutely right. Sega were pretty desperate after the Saturn and in the form of the Dreamcast had no choice but to put all their eggs into one basket. The trouble is by this point, however good the console was, the damage was already done. Sega are sort of the perfect example that being first to the market with a product does not guarantee you success. It could be pointed out that being first to the 16-bit market with the Mega Drive worked for them, but then it still took the console two or three years to really get into it's stride and it was not, by any means, an overnight success. Sega ultimately spent too much time worrying about what their rivals were doing, first about Nintendo's SNES and later about Sony's Playstation, and as a consequence took their eye off the ball. Not that they could have competed with the likes of Sony financially in the long run of course, but they certainly could have survived and competed for longer in the hardware market than they did had they not made such a fucking mess of things from 1995 onwards.

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    Bring on the noise! WCPO Agent Bones Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Virtual On with the Saturn digital pad is perfectly doable. VOOT's control scheme kinda sucks, and is a good example of the Dreamcast controller not having enough buttons.
    I never played Virtual On in the arcades. I learned to play it on the Saturn gamepad and love it. I was very disappointed that the Dreamcast controller does not allow the same controls. I never got into VOOT as much as VO, probably because of that.

    There was going to be a DVD add-on for Dreamcast at some point, wasn't there? I thought I remembered seeing a preview of it or something.
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    Raging in the Streets bultje112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones Justice View Post
    I never played Virtual On in the arcades. I learned to play it on the Saturn gamepad and love it. I was very disappointed that the Dreamcast controller does not allow the same controls. I never got into VOOT as much as VO, probably because of that.

    There was going to be a DVD add-on for Dreamcast at some point, wasn't there? I thought I remembered seeing a preview of it or something.
    why not try it with the dreamcast hori 6 button fighting pad? is very similar to saturn pad. or did you use the 3d controller?

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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    It plays better on 360. Not sure how this new PS4 game plays but I hope to find out soon.



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    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One Kanon's Avatar
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    Nothing could have saved the Dreamcast from being second to the PS2, and I'm sure Sega never had hopes to be #1 against it. Just the idea of a Playstation 2 was enough to blow people's minds...

    BUT, the DVD player I think would have meant a bigger install base (a little more expensive, but appealing to people looking for a DVD player too), and would have helped against piracy (software sales were the biggest income and while the copy protection worked, it was the best time for the system)

    The inminent coming of the Xbox was the other main issue. The DVD Rom could have helped there, but just a little.

    The Dreamcast was destined to be #2 if a success, the real fight was against Nintendo at first. Piracy stroke a big blow, and not being able to compete against MS would have meant #3 at best. The DVD-ROM could have helped with those issues, but it's a stretch to think it would have changed history.

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    To me the DC pad really needed to be like the Saturn 3D controller with 6 face buttons and really SEGA should have also given it a 2nd analog stick too.
    Thats all that was necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Hard to say how much the DVD format could have helped the Dreamcast. But, and I know I've said this like 6 times in other threads, I don't think the strategy of undercutting Sony on price was a good one to begin with. Both systems that gen that launched at $200 sold worse than both systems that launched at $300. The Gamecube did okay for a while but then it crashed pretty hard late in the generation. It got its last sales bump when the price dropped to $100 and then it had nowhere to go. The Dreamcast dropped to $150 in late 2000. You look at a console that's $150 in 2000, and it's hard to see that console still being around in 2004.
    Yea in 2004 the GameCube didn't get Burnout 3, which was a major blow. I don't know the exact reason, but I have to assume it was disc space. The PS2 ISO is 1.6 GBs compressed, probably 3-5 GBs uncompressed. I know a couple other 3rd parties starting jumping ship from the GameCube around the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tower of Power View Post
    Even on PS2, in Grand Theft Auto 3, the right analog stick throws your character into a first person view.
    But thats still better than Shenmue's control scheme. Controlling Ryo with a D-pad is, dare I say it, "meh".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    Sega was scared to death of pricing themselves off the market, considering what happened with the Saturn's launch price. Same with making it as easy to develop for as possible (to the point of including Windows CE!). They tried to make a PS1 2.0 while Sony was busy making something crazy.

    Ultimately, if you go into the game desperate, from a position of weakness like that, you're not getting far...
    The PS2 and PS3 definitely proved that developers aren't scared of tough programming, they're scared of low sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
    The inminent coming of the Xbox was the other main issue. The DVD Rom could have helped there, but just a little.
    Well I think Nintendo was also scared of the Xbox too. Microsoft had the deepest pockets that the game industry had ever seen.

    And after the 6th generation, Nintendo ultimately pulled out of making traditional game consoles.
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    Framemeister Expert Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner Tower of Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But thats still better than Shenmue's control scheme. Controlling Ryo with a D-pad is, dare I say it, "meh".
    On the one hand, I like Shenmue's control scheme for being so weird and different. On the other hand, I definitely think they could have done a better job, even at the time with the Dreamcast controller. It controls more like a weird driving game than a 3rd person action game. Of course, once you get used to it, it's fine, and the game is brilliant, but with Shenmue's development team being so unconventional, again, I don't think they would necessarily have made a control scheme any more conventional, even with two analog sticks. There was just no standard at the time.

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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones Justice View Post
    I never played Virtual On in the arcades. I learned to play it on the Saturn gamepad and love it. I was very disappointed that the Dreamcast controller does not allow the same controls. I never got into VOOT as much as VO, probably because of that.
    Agreed, it should have just used the Saturn controls, that said this is the only way to play the game. So glad I got my sticks back inthe day and held on to them

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