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Thread: Saturn games with transparency and/or light source shading

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    Default Saturn games with transparency and/or light source shading

    I'm trying to come up with a list of all the Saturn games that use these two cutting edge (at least for 1995) special effects. Here's what I can think of off the top of my head. Please fill in others as I'm sure there's a lot of titles that I never knew about.

    Transparency:
    -Guardian Heroes
    -Burning Rangers
    -Mega Man X4 (at least in the foreground)

    Light Source Shading:
    -Fighters Megamix (IMO the best LSS of the generation - including PS1)
    -NiGHTS (during level intros, not sure if it's used in game)

    Of course, back in the 90's, PS1 was regarded as more powerful, but many people ignored the capabilities of the Saturn (which was capable of equally impressive effects). Unfortunately, Saturn deserved some of the negativity because most developers simply used a pixel mesh instead of accessing the true transparency feature on one of the Saturn's processors. PS1 was easier to program for, and even launch games like Battle Arena Toshinden sport some impressive transparency.

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    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    The Saturn never had a chance against the PSX graphically.

    Sonic R is a famous example of transparencies. The Saturn only allowed transparencies in specific situations due to the quirky layering nature of the system's video hardware. It wasn't a matter of coding ability, it either could work or not.

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    counter of beans Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Cafeman's Avatar
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    There were many games that used non-mesh transparencies. Burning Rangers actually did transparency FX by copying the VDP1 semi transparent into the VDP2 buffer where it was further blended and processed, although at lower resolution. There was another thread which linked to a cool Chinese YT video where he explained all this in detail. Turn on subtitles if you try to watch it, his English is near unintelligible.

    Nights into Dreams had both effects. Powerslave and Fighters Megamix had very dramatic light sourcing effects.

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    The video you're thinking of was probably Low Score Boy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_OchOV_WDg

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Fighting Vipers was the 1st game to really show off Saturnís light sourcing and also some nice Gouraud shading. Plenty of Saturn games featured Transparent effects, only trouble was they could only be flat as they came off the VDP 2 falt planes. But games like BUG II, Thunder Force IV, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Street Racer made great use of them and also used the VDP2 to mimic real time reflections on the clouds or the EP 4 boss, Radiant Silvergun most prob made the best use of the planes for transparent effects along with Darius Gaiden off the chart Transparent effects. Also I did like the lighting effects in Saga and Christmas Nights, Stellar Assualt, Loaded, darklight conflict, Exhumed, Duke 3D, Quake, World League Soccer 98 to name but a few.
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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Fighting Vipers was the 1st game to really show off Saturnís light sourcing and also some nice Gouraud shading. Plenty of Saturn games featured Transparent effects, only trouble was they could only be flat as they came off the VDP 2 falt planes.
    Once again this isn't true. VDP1 has support for full 3D transparencies using 50/50 blending. It just has limitations due to the following reasons:

    1) It's slow
    2) Pixel overdraw due to the use of warped quads/distorted sprites results in errors in the transparencies. You can actually see this in games that use it like Sonic R.
    3) VDP1+VDP2 layering could result in other errors/oddities.

    Also, inb4pixiedust.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Once again this isn't true. VDP1 has support for full 3D transparencies using 50/50 blending. It just has limitations due to the following reasons:

    1) It's slow
    2) Pixel overdraw due to the use of warped quads/distorted sprites results in errors in the transparencies. You can actually see this in games that use it like Sonic R.
    3) VDP1+VDP2 layering could result in other errors/oddities.

    Also, inb4pixiedust.
    Says the One who makes out the Saturn couldn't handle FF 7 due to transparency effect?. It's clear to anyone the Saturn had issues with polygons that needed Alpha effects used on them, not even the Quad based 3DO suffered from such issues. Nearly every 3D Saturn polygon game had to apply the mesh effect, no issues with 2D plane ones, thanks to the VDP 2

    Now leave your grude and instead list some games that made use of transparent and lighting effects in Saturn games.
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 03-27-2018 at 12:17 AM.
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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Says the One who makes out the Saturn couldn't handle FF 7 due to transparency effect?. It's clear to anyone the Saturn had issues with polygons that needed Alpha effects used on them, not even the Quad based 3DO suffered from such issues. Nearly every 3D Saturn polygon game had to apply the mesh effect, no issues with 2D plane ones, thanks to the VDP 2

    Now leave your grude and instead list some games that made use of transparent and lighting effects in Saturn games.
    Right off the top of my head I can think of three 3D games that use VDP1 transparencies. Sonic R, Black Dawn, and Panzer Dragoon. Sonic R uses it for the Light Trails when you hit a dash panel, Black Dawn uses it for clouds, and Panzer Dragoon uses it for the lasers. You can see the issues with this in each of those games. Sonic R and Black Dawn have the pixel overdraw bug, and Panzer Dragoon has the issue with objects disappearing behind the transparency due to VDP1/VPD2 blending priorities.

    For lighting Quake, Powerslave, Duke Nukem 3D, Shining Force III, Panzer Dragoon Saga, NiGHTS into Dreams, Fighters Megamix, Digital Dance Mix, etc. all make use of additive blending to pull of lighting effects by VDP1. You can even see the issues with this as when they don't do colored lighting the textures tend to over saturate or desaturate to the point of looking washed out or crushed.

    As for FF7, yes, the Saturn would struggle with the transparencies. Why? Because of the issues I just mentioned to you and due to the fact the Saturn only supports additive 50/50 blending. The PS1 supports multiplicative blending which FF7 uses a ton of which is why it's transparencies look so unique and different from anything you see on the Saturn or N64 for that matter.

    This has been explained to you over and over again in the most simplest and easy to understand terms. You just refuse to listen to it and accept that once again you're wrong and the facts and technical information on the system all disagrees with you.

    To put it in the simplest way I can, here is a simple breakdown:

    • Both the Saturn and PS1 have hardware level support for transparencies in both 2D and 3D situations. Saturn has it in both VDP2 and VDP1. Both are limited in their use. For the rest of this list I'll be referring to VDP1 transparencies only.
    • The Saturn has support for only 50/50 blending
    • The PS1 can do 50/50 blending and more
    • The Saturn only does additive blending
    • The PS1 can do multiplicative blending
    • The Saturn can produce artifacts in it's transparencies due to Pixel overdraw due to the use of warped sprites.
    • The PS1 does not have this issue.
    • The Saturn can produce errors in trancparencies with objects disappearing in either the VDP1 or VDP2 layer due to layering priorities.
    • The PS1 does not have this issue.


    Does that make it easy enough for you to grasp?
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 03-27-2018 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post

    Now leave your grude and instead list some games that made use of transparent and lighting effects in Saturn games.
    I'm about to open a can of ass and show you what a grudge is really like if you can't have a legit discussion without talking out of your ass. Again I'm getting multiple complaints and I'm not going to have you shit on this thread just because you don't want to hear other people's opinions. It's like you just can't come into every single thread without looking for a fight & it's getting tiresome.

    I'm only going to warn you once to actually discuss things like an actual adult being instead of ignoring people when they bring up 100% valid points.
    05/05/15

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonusKun View Post
    I'm about to open a can of ass and show you what a grudge is really like if you can't have a legit discussion without talking out of your ass. Again I'm getting multiple complaints and I'm not going to have you shit on this thread just because you don't want to hear other people's opinions. It's like you just can't come into every single thread without looking for a fight & it's getting tiresome.

    I'm only going to warn you once to actually discuss things like an actual adult being instead of ignoring people when they bring up 100% valid points.
    Point taken, and I am sorry.
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    Raging in the Streets bultje112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    The Saturn never had a chance against the PSX graphically.

    Sonic R is a famous example of transparencies. The Saturn only allowed transparencies in specific situations due to the quirky layering nature of the system's video hardware. It wasn't a matter of coding ability, it either could work or not.
    the saturn didn't look worse than playstation at all. the only problem was the first impression was really bad because sega of japan fucked up the western launch. had saturn released in late 95 with sega rally, virtua fighter 2 and virtua cop, it would've blown playstation away, since those games looked better than anything on playstation. especially virtua fighter 2.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post

    Does that make it easy enough for you to grasp?
    Fair points, whats the range of the VDP 1 Alpha channel compared to the PS 32 levels of transparency in its Alpha channel? Just always seemed VDP 1 effects came up short, compared the 3DO never mind the PS. Even the 50/50 effects in Panzer Dragoon and Sonic R didn't seem to look completely opaque, while the VDP II planes could be and seemed to have a range up there with the PS. And I'm just asking politely now, no more silly stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Point taken, and I am sorry.
    Thank you, Now please enjoy the forums but remember Trekkies and Gamevet don't want to fight you, they want to discuss things about their favorite systems with you. I admit I don't know all of the ins and outs of a lot of console systems so I find these threads enjoyable when valid points from you and others are brought up. Keep it like that and let everyone enjoy the discussion and maybe learn something new along the way.
    05/05/15

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    the saturn didn't look worse than playstation at all. the only problem was the first impression was really bad because sega of japan fucked up the western launch. had saturn released in late 95 with sega rally, virtua fighter 2 and virtua cop, it would've blown playstation away, since those games looked better than anything on playstation. especially virtua fighter 2.
    Well said, Had SOA/SOJ waited until June 95, then Could have launched with Clockwork Knight II, BUG, VF Remix, Panzer Dragoon Ect, that would have been better. Also here some great examples of Saturn lighting and Transparent effects







    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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    Presented for your pleasure

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    Here's a legit question for you TA. What do you think of the PSOne portable small screen?
    05/05/15

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