Quantcast

Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 194

Thread: Hideki Sato on the Sega Saturn (incredible new interview)

  1. #31
    WCPO Agent
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    754
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    I don't know. That Is why I asked. Many people suggest that the Saturn would be better of with a single cpu and a dedicated T&L processor instead of the dual CPUs. So I wonder if it a Saturn with a 68020 and it's own "GTE" couldn't be possible. Maybe better.
    You could start with a 68020 but it doesn't solve the problem you still need other hardware to render 3D. It would be like the Namco System 22, it's got a 68EC020 (probably handling the input and some game logic) but all the rendering is done by DSPs.

  2. #32
    WCPO Agent
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    754
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    I'm not sure I follow. Sony could save big time on manufacturing because they could buy from themselves at cost. Sega had to pay profit margins to all of its suppliers. Sega couldn't just open up factories to manufacture everything - that was way beyond their means. Sony already had the established infrastructure for manufacturing CD-ROM drives, for example.
    Yes, there's an advantage if your factory happens to be the most efficient in the world at building that particular component. Otherwise, not so much. It's like asking "why buy your food in a grocery store when you could grow it all at home?"

  3. #33
    Wildside Expert bpguimaraes23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    129
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    You could start with a 68020 but it doesn't solve the problem you still need other hardware to render 3D. It would be like the Namco System 22, it's got a 68EC020 (probably handling the input and some game logic) but all the rendering is done by DSPs.
    Iím pritty sure system 22 had dedicated rendering hardware in addition to the T&L DSPs. It was actually the system I had in mind on my first question. I was working with the assumption that a 68020 Saturn would be a completely different design than what it is in reality.
    I was just wondering if the 68020 would be a real desadventege if the graphics hardware and overal design were better.
    Last edited by bpguimaraes23; 06-25-2018 at 09:07 PM.

  4. #34
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,167
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    I don't know. That Is why I asked. Many people suggest that the Saturn would be better of with a single cpu and a dedicated T&L processor instead of the dual CPUs. So I wonder if it a Saturn with a 68020 and it's own "GTE" couldn't be possible. Maybe better.
    It's clear that CPU wouldn't have been good enough and even a single SH-2 would have outclassed it by a long short. I can see why SOA would go for that CPU, but like Atari going for it in the Falcom, it was clear that Motorola had lost the 32bit CPU battle and their CPU's just weren't good enough and I'm amazed SOA were pushing so hard for it, but then again with their handling of the 32bit era, maybe not.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  5. #35
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,550
    Rep Power
    64

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    Still, it seems strange to me that they would have wanted the 68020 unless we're missing something; that chip had been available since '84 and the 68040 had become available in '91.
    The Mega Drive used a 68000 which is a CPU that came out in 1979 (9 years earlier than the console itself).

    Consoles weren't about using the latest and greatest back then. In fact it was with the 5th generation that it started to change (see: switch to RISC processors because the cheap CISC ones were way too slow).

  6. #36
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,167
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    The Mega Drive used a 68000 which is a CPU that came out in 1979 (9 years earlier than the console itself).
    But that was a good CPU, The trouble was with the 68020 it wasn't that great and the likes of Intel, NEC, ARM and hell even Hitachi were moving forward and offering better CPU and RISC ones at that. So if Tom and his crew had his way, the Saturn would have been even more crippled.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  7. #37
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,550
    Rep Power
    64

    Default

    The point I was making is that there were better CPUs by 1988 and we could be also asking why Sega didn't use one of those instead of the 68000.

    Kind of a moot point since the Saturn used the SH-2s instead. Though goddamn, it really sounds like they didn't they think it well with the tools (and also the lack of a Sonic game early on, I bet that the Saturn would have attracted more people with it and publishers would have given more attention to the Saturn as atrocious as it was simply because there'd be more money there).

    Sega also screwed up by early on claiming it had "64-bit class performance" then having games like Virtua Hydlide (awful framerate) or Wanchan Connection (awful framerate and small viewport! double whammy there). It seems that until Panzer Dragoon they didn't have anything decent in terms of 3D and in fact all the cool stuff seemed to be getting announced for the 32X x_x (source for this paragraph: me watching the Sega Video Magazine issues from that period)

  8. #38
    WCPO Agent
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    754
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    The point I was making is that there were better CPUs by 1988 and we could be also asking why Sega didn't use one of those instead of the 68000.

    Kind of a moot point since the Saturn used the SH-2s instead. Though goddamn, it really sounds like they didn't they think it well with the tools (and also the lack of a Sonic game early on, I bet that the Saturn would have attracted more people with it and publishers would have given more attention to the Saturn as atrocious as it was simply because there'd be more money there).

    Sega also screwed up by early on claiming it had "64-bit class performance" then having games like Virtua Hydlide (awful framerate) or Wanchan Connection (awful framerate and small viewport! double whammy there). It seems that until Panzer Dragoon they didn't have anything decent in terms of 3D and in fact all the cool stuff seemed to be getting announced for the 32X x_x (source for this paragraph: me watching the Sega Video Magazine issues from that period)
    The 68k was just such a common processor in the 1980s, it was in so many arcade boards it made a lot of sense for a console. The SH-2 wasn't. It's incredible they didn't have a Sonic game ready to go on day one, none of the launch titles really showed off what the system could do. Panzer Dragoon was OK but not my kind of gameplay.

    When I saw the Saturn I had no idea what kind of performance it was capable of, it really looked to my friends and I like they had just put the Genesis, Sega CD and 32X into one unit and called it a day. They needed a killer app at launch and didn't deliver.

  9. #39
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,167
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    The point I was making is that there were better CPUs by 1988 and we could be also asking why Sega didn't use one of those instead of the 68000.
    Not really and not for the price SEGA was getting them at. Intel chips cost too much and they didn't start to get their act together until the likes of 486 and then the Pentium. Even the main man behind the Atari ST said that Motorola had lost the 32bit battle for CPUs and using it in the Falcom was a mistake.

    it really sounds like they didn't they think it well with the tools
    Did that hurt the Mega Drive, Master System ? I belive Atari were the 1st to do it with the Atari Lynx not that help the system vs the Game Gear or Gameboy. I think too much is made of the tools, after all it never heled back the PS2 or helped the Cube or Dreamcast which were said to offer great power and the best development tools around at the time.


    Sega also screwed up by early on claiming it had "64-bit class performance" then having games like Virtua Hydlide (awful framerate) or Wanchan Connection (awful framerate and small viewport! double whammy there).
    That's just PR . I mean just because the N64 was 64Bit did that mean it could outdo the 32Bit Daytona USA Model 2


    Also Virtua Hydlide wasn't a launch game and Panzer Dragoon came out a mere couple of weeks after it. Virtual Fighter was a huge jump over the MD and Gran Chaser offered better 3D gfx than anything possible on the MD and run full screen at 30 fps and Deadlus looked really good too.
    Think more of the screw up was the 32X, which half the time couldn't outdo the Mega Drive or Snes for 2D graphics and where it 3D games run like crap.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  10. #40
    Outrunner
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    619
    Rep Power
    47

    Default

    Well this was certainly an interesting read and I would like to say thanks to Gryson for translating this part of the interview and would like everyone else love to see the rest of the interview translated gradually over time. (Rep given)

    My thoughts mostly revolve around Hideki Sato's contention that SOA wanted to use the 68020 chip in the Saturn. Personally speaking this is the first I've heard of the MC680202 chip being considered for the Saturn, has there been any other mention of this? None of the very early spec sheets ever mentioned it ( the 2 I recall being mentioned was the NEC V series chip and obviously the Hitachi SH chip).

    I also don't recall this chip ever being mentioned by any of the high ranking members of SOA when they were being interviewed (I'm thinking of Joe Miller, Scott Bayless etc) IIRC they only have talked about 2 main SOA suggested alternatives to the Saturn system - the SGI chipset based system and the Nvidia NV2 powered V08 platform.

    I could however be wrong on that and would love to learn more regarding this aspect - I actually got the impression that SOJ were rather secretive regarding new hardware at that time and that SOA didn't get a whole lot of say in any plans, in fact I read that SOJ kept the wraps on the SegaCD development right up to the launch and SOA had a hard time getting hold of prototypes for development purposes. The 1st Sega hardware platform that I knew SOJ consulted SOA on was of course the 32X and SOA seemed very on board with the SH2 at that time which also does not quite gel with the assertion from Sato that SOA was against the use of the SH2 chip.

    I'm not going to be as crass and disrespectful as TA and start calling him a liar and all that libellous BS - this was over a quarter of a century ago after all, maybe he misremembered the exact chip, tbh I'm not sure, it was very interesting nevertheless.


    I also found the relatively close contacts that Hideki Sato kept with Ken Kutaragi thoughout the "war" between the Playstation and Saturn very interesting and also Sega's unwillingness to go 3rd party, seems to indicate that Sony did not view Sega as an enemy, but were rather aiming more at Nintendo which isn't really surprising.



    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    AFAIK at the time Sato was head of R&D, but any decisions regarding relations with Sony at that time may not have involved him, especially if they were at a preliminary stage. As the former SoA CEO, Kalinske is better placed than Sato to comment on business dealings that were going on behind the scenes at the time. Also, where does Kalinske say it was more powerful? Or are you referring to hype when the Saturn was new, because if so, well duh! A CEO of a company is never, ever, going to say that their new hardware is anything other than the best thing ever. They're certainly not going to publicly say "hey, our competitor's system's more powerful than ours, go buy that instead".

    I don't think Sato says they knew nothing about the Playstation, or that its existence was a surprise, and what he does say jibes with what has been claimed for years: that the Saturn was upgraded in response to Sony revealing details.

    It was also confirmed by Joe Miller that SoA wanted to use the chipset offered by Silicon Graphics, assumedly because they weren't impressed by the Saturn. Calling Kalinske a liar is libellous without proof, and without knowing when this 68020 discussion took place, and in what context, there is no proof.
    Well said. I totally agree with what you said especially the underlined part. Rep given.

  11. #41
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,167
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    TOM is like some GOD and a cult on here. Anyone who disrespects him is the devil and anybody who doesn't believe in him ins wrong .

    He's been found out to be the lair and the spin king he always was. From from working with SONY ( clear SEGA didn't have a clue) and from thinking the Saturn was underspeced (like he told Retro) Tom and his crew wanted a Saturn with even less power and I believe the MC680202 CPU has been brought up twice before in various interviews and I'm sure one is still up on shmuplations.com.
    And can one imagine, if Tom was having dinner with Ken Kutaragi? Then it would hav not only would have been TOM could have had the PSX, but also the PS2 too.


    Hideki Sato shows his class and doesn't look to discredit SOA or single out or blame people from SOA and admits to some of his own Team failings, the complete opposite to spin king that is Tom Kalinske. What a great SEGA man and a true SEGA legend Sato-san is.
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 06-26-2018 at 07:48 PM.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  12. #42
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    984
    Rep Power
    37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    My thoughts mostly revolve around Hideki Sato's contention that SOA wanted to use the 68020 chip in the Saturn. Personally speaking this is the first I've heard of the MC680202 chip being considered for the Saturn, has there been any other mention of this? None of the very early spec sheets ever mentioned it ( the 2 I recall being mentioned was the NEC V series chip and obviously the Hitachi SH chip).

    I also don't recall this chip ever being mentioned by any of the high ranking members of SOA when they were being interviewed (I'm thinking of Joe Miller, Scott Bayless etc) IIRC they only have talked about 2 main SOA suggested alternatives to the Saturn system - the SGI chipset based system and the Nvidia NV2 powered V08 platform.

    I could however be wrong on that and would love to learn more regarding this aspect - I actually got the impression that SOJ were rather secretive regarding new hardware at that time and that SOA didn't get a whole lot of say in any plans, in fact I read that SOJ kept the wraps on the SegaCD development right up to the launch and SOA had a hard time getting hold of prototypes for development purposes. The 1st Sega hardware platform that I knew SOJ consulted SOA on was of course the 32X and SOA seemed very on board with the SH2 at that time which also does not quite gel with the assertion from Sato that SOA was against the use of the SH2 chip.
    It's been mentioned before by Sato in 1998. I linked to the interview two pages back, but here it is again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hideki Sato
    There were two candidates for the CPU. The first, which Sega of America was pushing for, was the 68020. It had good compatibility with the 68000 processor and would be easy to use, but its limitations were also clear. The other option was the RISC CPU: it seemed much more powerful, but for several reasons, the risk was also much higher (just as the name ďRISCĒ implies!). As it had always been with Sega, we needed a home console that would be powerful enough to handle our arcade ports. That being the case, we took the risky-but-idealistic path and selected the RISC processor, the Hitachi SH2.
    http://shmuplations.com/segahistory/

    Note that he never says that SOA was against the SH2, just that they had put forth the 68020. I imagine it was at a very early stage of planning.

    It's also interesting in what he doesn't say: he never mentions the SGI chipset that SOA secured a potential deal for. The fact that SOJ was willing to look at this chip shows that they did include SOA in some decision-making (as you might recall, Joe Miller says that SOJ turned down the chip because there were practical concerns about how many chips could be made quickly, as well as possibly being turned off by non-Japanese tech). I'm not sure if Sato was involved in that at all, though, or maybe he's just forgotten.

  13. #43
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Birmingham, UK
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,194
    Rep Power
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    TOM is like some GOD and a cult on here. Anyone who disrespects him is the devil and anybody who doesn't believe in him in wrong .

    He's been found out to be the lair and the spin king he always was . From from working with SONY (quite clear SEGA didnb't have a clue) and from thinking the Saturn was underspeced (like he told Retro) Tom and his crew wanted a Saturn with even less power and I believe the MC680202 CPU has been brought up twice before in various interviews and I'm sure one is still up on shmuplations.com.
    And can one imagine, if Tom was having dinner with Ken Kutaragi? Then it would hav not only would have been TOM could have had the PSX, but also the PS2 too.


    Hideki Sato shows his class and doesn't look to discredit SOA or single out or blame people from SOA and admits to some of his own Team failings, the complete opposite to spin king that is Tom Kalinske. What a great SEGA man and a true SEGA legend Sato-san is.
    I think it's a bit rich calling anyone defending Kalinske a cultist when, as far as I can see, you're reading into statements and jumping to conclusions based on your own preconceived views that SoJ >>> SoA.

    Again you're calling a man a liar, with no proof whatsoever, when you're in no position to make that judgement. You're clinging on to a comment from Sato about SoA wanting to use a 68020 without any knowledge whatsoever of when that discussion took place, what the context of that discussion was, or even who was involved on the American side. Also again, Sato wouldn't necessarily have been aware of any dealings with Sony. Even if he had been, it's not pertinent to an interview about his experiences in hardware and software development, and he might not have felt at liberty to discuss it; it would have been outside of his responsibilities at Sega, and AFAIK Japanese ex-executives tend to be more reluctant than American and European ones to discuss things that were confidential, even if they are no longer relevant to the business. Why the hell wouldn't there be people defending him given the lack of evidence?

    Joe Miller corroborated the account that SoA pitched the concept of using a MIPS powered SGI chipset to SoJ, and that it was rejected. That hardly fits your narrative of SoA wanting a weaker Saturn, or was Miller a liar too?

    Expressing doubt that someone's recollections are telling the whole story is one thing, outright accusing someone of being a liar without proof is quite another.
    Last edited by Silanda; 06-26-2018 at 06:25 PM.

  14. #44
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,167
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    The main is a lair and he spins all the time.. He contradicts himself all the time. Back in 1995 in a 2-page open letter to Usenet, Tom went on to say how the Saturn was more powerful than the PS, only to recently tell Retro gamer that he always thought the Saturn hardware wasn't up to it. He made out how he and SONY were working on Hardware another lie, never mind the bull he told over the Saturn early USA launch . Tom made out that SOA and SOJ didn't get on, not backed up by any of the key staff at SOA be that Miller, Bayless or Marty Franz.

    The N64 wasn't SOA idea and it was offered to SEGA, just like the Lynx chipset was. SEGA was right to turn down the N64 hardware, not so right for the Lynx mind but live and learn.

    If left to the SOA guys we would have had a 32 Bit Saturn with a CPU that could barely outclass the CDi, or Falcom CD32. Nice one Tom.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  15. #45
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Birmingham, UK
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,194
    Rep Power
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The main is a lair and he spins all the time.. He contradicts himself all the time. Back in 1995 in a 2-page open letter to Usenet, Tom went on to say how the Saturn was more powerful than the PS, only to recently tell Retro gamer that he always thought the Saturn hardware wasn't up to it. He made out how he and SONY were working on Hardware another lie, never mind the bull he told over the Saturn early USA launch . Tom made out that SOA and SOJ didn't get on, not backed up by any of the key staff at SOA be that Miller, Bayless or Marty Franz.

    The N64 wasn't SOA idea and it was offered to SEGA, just like the Lynx chipset was. SEGA was right to turn down the N64 hardware, not so right for the Lynx mind but live and learn.

    If left to the SOA guys we would have had a 32 Bit Saturn with a CPU that could barely outclass the CDi, or Falcom CD32. Nice one Tom.
    As for the Usenet thing, no shit, he was correct from a certain point of view and was trying to sell a product. But your attitude here is quite clear: if a SoJ employee put positive spin on the Saturn's specs, it's just PR, if Kalinske did it, he's a liar. Also, unless they were specifically asked (please quote them if they were), engineers not mentioning regional corporate rivalry within management does not mean that it wasn't there. Michael Latham's impression of the situation regarding Eternal Champions 3's cancellation definitely implies a level of pettiness amongst some of the Japanese management:

    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Gamer 169
    (With regards to SoA management forcing through the release of the 32X version of Virtua Fighter, which Latham was a producer on, when SoJ objected to the additions to the game) ...Joe Miller and Tom Kalinske were having none of it and got Sega Of Japan upper management to relent and ship our gold master as is. There was a deep price to pay for that day. A couple of months later Eternal Champions 3 was killed by Sega Of Japan and the property was pretty much all but eliminated from Sega history. Now you know what was the last straw. I knew this risk but I bleed blue even now and I wasn't about to let down our customers who bought a 32X or any title that shipped with our name on it.
    You know what? I don't think I'm going to argue any more. It's clearly pointless; you're going to repeat the same things over and over again as if they're facts, offer nothing to back up your claims, and ignore any counter arguments. And FFS, it's the Atari Falcon.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 11 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 11 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •