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Thread: Translating Saturn Grandia

  1. #91
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Grandia does some odd things, like running the movies stretched to 4x size and displaying them in 704x448 interlaced resolution.

    For the map screen, it is entirely possible that they used that first, but they did not like the result for whatever reason and changed it back. One thing I can think of is to avoid the screen resync that can cause a skip in the a/v display for a second or two even on a CRT. That, or they didn't like how much the interlaced display flickered (for movies, it is fine since it makes the motion smoother).
    The thing is that it's still running in interlaced mode for that screen. It's just running at 352 wide instead of 704 wide. So it's 352x448. The movies actually run in that resolution as well and not 704x448.

    EDIT:

    I was able to find what values I needed to change in the games data files to make it just run in 704x448 for the Map Screen and only the Map Screen instead of 352x448. So far it looks promising and it works on real hardware too:

    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 05-17-2019 at 09:59 PM.

  2. #92
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    I didn't check whether it uses 704x448 or just 352x448.
    The larger textures make sense if the map uses interlaced, I thought it used standard low-res. In as much sense as the extra detail does not go entirely unused.

    The video hardware on the Saturn is a byzantine labyrinth of conditions for each feature, so there might have been something that did not work in that resolution - shading, shadowing, whatever. Hell, might have been just something as simple as their tools not supporting that specific resolution. Or it could have been something as simple as not wanting to add another game resolution to administrative papers that have to be submitted to Sega for each game. Or maybe using that mode worked better if the game skips from movies to the map (note: I haven't played it past the first town, so I've no clue if that happens or not).

    Either way, if it works with all effects still enabled, then all the more power to you.
    Last edited by zyrobs; 05-18-2019 at 03:04 AM.

  3. #93
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Yeah, the 640/704px-wide modes only do 8bpp sprites, which prevents some effects such as gouraud shading (unless you want to abuse palette gradienting :​v) and forces everything to use the VDP2 palettes. It also prevents the scaling stuff in VDP2 from working if I recall correctly, and prevents large sprites at the sides due to the much smaller room beyond the framebuffer (but that can be worked around by splitting them). At least VDP2-based alpha blending still works (i.e. against the backgrounds).

    It doesn't look like anything here would be a problem with those limitations tho… Either something really weird must have happened, or some effect that doesn't work in this mode is used but only shows up late in the game.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Yeah, the 640/704px-wide modes only do 8bpp sprites, which prevents some effects such as gouraud shading (unless you want to abuse palette gradienting :​v) and forces everything to use the VDP2 palettes. It also prevents the scaling stuff in VDP2 from working if I recall correctly, and prevents large sprites at the sides due to the much smaller room beyond the framebuffer (but that can be worked around by splitting them). At least VDP2-based alpha blending still works (i.e. against the backgrounds).

    It doesn't look like anything here would be a problem with those limitations tho… Either something really weird must have happened, or some effect that doesn't work in this mode is used but only shows up late in the game.
    Or another likely possibility is just bad code, a bug, or just not fully understanding how something works. The Playstation version has the map screen running in 400x240, but the map only takes up 352x224 of the screen real estate. From the looks of things playing with resolution on the Saturn, the native resolution of the map background image is 352x224. I wouldn't be surprised if the developers assumed they needed to keep the width the same as the source image resolution, or something like that.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Yeah, the 640/704px-wide modes only do 8bpp sprites, which prevents some effects such as gouraud shading (unless you want to abuse palette gradienting :​v) and forces everything to use the VDP2 palettes. It also prevents the scaling stuff in VDP2 from working if I recall correctly, and prevents large sprites at the sides due to the much smaller room beyond the framebuffer (but that can be worked around by splitting them). At least VDP2-based alpha blending still works (i.e. against the backgrounds).

    It doesn't look like anything here would be a problem with those limitations tho… Either something really weird must have happened, or some effect that doesn't work in this mode is used but only shows up late in the game.
    The docs are a bit muddy on that. They say that sprite "color calculation" (transparency, gouraud shading, shadowing) does not work in 8-bit mode. At other parts, they say that when you use them in 8-bit pixels, "the results cannot be guaranteed", referring to the fact that they end up doing RGB data addition on pixel indexes, which causes all sorts of issues. But we know that when carefully planned (ie. you put gradient ramps in the palette), you can in fact use 8-bit palette and shading. I suspect transparency would have the same caveat, and could be used if you prepared some kind of single colour silhouette of a sprite with the data being something predictable like 0x000001 - but then you hit the wall of VDP1 transparency being useless in general.

    Palette ramping on 8-bit colour is done in damn near every game that is notable for using gouraud shading on the Saturn. I think even the CD Player does it, on the VU cubes.

    Either way, if the only limitation is the fact that the pixels are 8-bit, then they should be possible in hi-res mode? But I can't name a single game that does any form of hi-res polygon with shading. Specifically, a few titles that used hi-res polygons, had sequels that instead opted for shaded but low-res polys. This would imply that there's something else that physically prevents the VDP1 from doing gouraud shading at all when it is in any of the interlaced modes. What's up with this?

    Background scaling on the VDP2 works fine in hi-res, it's just framebuffer rotation that gets disabled. VDP1 framebuffer rotation and hi-res are mutually exclusive and set on the same bits even.
    I don't know if any VDP2 features are specifically disabled in hi-res modes, other than that you need more memory accesses so you can't do as many effects in general.

  6. #96
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    So I now have all the Disc 1 Map Screens translated and running at 704x448:











    These should be in the next patch assuming I don't find some horrific bug from the resolution change.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Either way, if the only limitation is the fact that the pixels are 8-bit, then they should be possible in hi-res mode? But I can't name a single game that does any form of hi-res polygon with shading. Specifically, a few titles that used hi-res polygons, had sequels that instead opted for shaded but low-res polys. This would imply that there's something else that physically prevents the VDP1 from doing gouraud shading at all when it is in any of the interlaced modes. What's up with this?
    First of all: 640/720px wide is not interlaced (interlaced is the vertical hi-res, not horizontal). Anyway…

    The framebuffer itself has to be 8-bit in the horizontally hi-res modes, and that means there can be 256 unique colors period (actually 255, since one is transparent). If you want to do shaded polygons, this means the shaded colors need to be in that 255 set too. Now things start looking cramped. This means you need to be very careful with how you build the palettes, and even then there was a high chance that it could look like a crapshot (also see: DOS games that attempted it on VGA). It also can only be done on a per-polygon basis, not per-vertex (so no smooth shading). (EDIT: in hindsight you could attempt to exploit the paletted gouraud thing to do smooth shading, but that makes palette management even harder)

    The only real advantage is that checkerboard patterns blur so hard (remember, composite) that they become practically translucent.

  8. #98
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    oh, right, that's stupid of me. I did not consider the hard colour limit.

    Another reason why a 256/512px wide resolution would've done wonders for the Saturn.
    Last edited by zyrobs; 05-19-2019 at 01:51 AM.

  9. #99
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    I've been able to pull the tiles for the characters names for the results screen from the PS1 version:




    Unfortunately Guido's name wont fit for the space I have available, so if I can't find away to extend it I may have to shorten his name to Gido.

  10. #100
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    New Patch:

    Disc 1 v0.58 (5/24/2019):
    • Fixed an error with the portraits in the final scenes of Disc 1.
    • All Disc 1 Map Screens Have had their text translated
    • An experimental change has been implemented to have these maps display in 704x448 instead of their original 352x448. If no issues are reported it will say as it allows the text to be much cleaner.
    • Character Names in the Battle Results Screens have been translated.


    https://github.com/TrekkiesUnite118/...sc_1_v0.58.zip

    Also with the recent news from beta testers that disc 1 can be completed, I'm going to start focusing on trying to clean up the out of sync audio for the rest of disc 1 as well as any remaining uncompressed graphical text. Once that is done all that should remain is the compressed battle graphics, the FMVs, and the few sequences that are voiced with no text. At that point I'll be shifting focus to Disc 2.

  11. #101
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    So here's an update on where things stand. While I'm still working on Disc 1, Disc 2 shares a lot of common files so getting it going didn't take much effort. The hardest part was that the Weapon and Enemy data is a bit different on Disc 2. So I had to redo it. With that done the tools I already made for Disc 1 worked fine for Disc 2:






    While I was at it, I also took the opportunity to translate all of the error messages in the game:



    With that out of the way, this is what remains to be done on each disc.

    Disc 1:
    • Continue to fix Voice Synchronization Issues
    • Fix any more bugs that get reported

    Disc 2:
    • Beta Test for possible crashes, glitches, and bugs
    • Translate Map Screens
    • Fix Voice Synchronization

    Technical issues that still need to be figured out on Both Discs:
    • Compression for compressed tile data in Battle Menu and Results screen.
    • Cause for text alignment issues for "Your Initiative" and "Ambushed"
    • FMV Decoding/Encoding so Subtitles can be added.

    Nice things to have on both discs:
    • Figure out how to add text to voiced portions that are voice only.
    • Touch up the Translation (Change coffee references for Original Alcohol References, etc.)
    • Fix Feena's Time Gate bug (Still need to figure out what the root cause for this is.)
    • Possibly replace the "This is a Sega Saturn disc" track for an English version.

    I'll probably have a beta patch ready for Disc 2 sometime soon once I have done some playtesting for any major issues right out of the gate.

  12. #102
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    Very, very cool. How far along this has gotten is truly awesome and I can't wait to give the full game a beta test run.


    Currently Reviewing: Galaxy Force (SMS)
    Coming Up:TF3 Side by Side
    Done:

  13. #103
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    Ok guys, I have the map screens translated for Disc 2:



    And I've done a little spot checking with Digital Museum Saves and things seem to be behaving well so far:




    So I think with that we can start beta testing disc 2. Linked below is Patch version 0.50 for Disc 2. Same patching methods are used. As with Disc 1, please report any bugs, crashes, or other issues you encounter in this thread or the SegaXtreme thread:

    https://github.com/TrekkiesUnite118/...sc_2_v0.50.zip

    I've also put up a new patch for Disc 1 that brings it up to version 0.60. This brings over a lot of the new features of Disc 2 such as translated error messages. Since it can be completed I'd like to say 0.60 indicates a playable release, but lacks polish such as what the remaining issues are:

    https://github.com/TrekkiesUnite118/...sc_1_v0.60.zip

    My general idea for versioning will be as follows:

    0.50 - The game is technically playable but not able to be completed due to crashes and bugs.
    0.60 - Major crashes and issues are resolved and the game can be completed. However it still lacks polish.
    0.70, 0.80, and 0.90 - More polish has been completed. I'm reserving these for milestones such as all voices are synchronized, compressed graphics are translated, FMVs have subtitles, etc.
    1.0 - What remaining issues are polished out. So problems with text alignment, etc.

    Any nice to haves that get accomplished before 1.0 will be integrated into one of those releases. If they come after 1.0 it will be an update like a 1.1.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-10-2019 at 02:18 AM.

  14. #104
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    Here's a fix for a hang up issue after Rapp was introduced.

    https://github.com/TrekkiesUnite118/..._2_v0.50.1.zip
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-10-2019 at 02:16 AM.

  15. #105
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    New patches are out for Disc 1 and 2.

    Disc 1 is now at version 0.61 which fixes some minor issues with the text in the magic shop and save screen being glitchy:
    https://github.com/TrekkiesUnite118/...sc_1_v0.61.zip

    Disc 2 is now at version 0.51 which fixes a hangup when encountering Milda, and includes the magic shop screen and save screen fixes from Disc 1:
    https://github.com/TrekkiesUnite118/...sc_2_v0.51.zip

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