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Thread: Let's talk Virtua Fighter 3 on Saturn

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    WCPO Agent Orchid87's Avatar
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    Saturn Let's talk Virtua Fighter 3 on Saturn

    I hope this topic is not taboo here, hehe.

    I'd like to discuss two things:

    1) What are the latest news on this holy grail of cancelled Saturn games? The last news I've read were ten years ago when someone took glitchy Supermodel VF3 screenshots and tried to pass them as Saturn version screens. Anything new since then? What's the full story behind the development and cancellation of this port?

    2) Imagine yourself being in charge with Satrun VF3 port. How would you do it?
    I'd certainly do it this way:

    - Go for 60 FPS, high resolution (like VF2 and Dead or Alive ports) and complete arcade movesets/techniques above everything else.

    - No goraud shading and light sourcing, again, like VF2 and DoA. Fighters Megamix has those and it is an ugly low resolution mess. The depth and shading should be static and baked into textures. Obviously you can't just use Model 3 textures, you have to work on them quite a bit to add fake shading.

    - Looking at Model 3 character models, you can see that there are actually not so many polygons on them. Many are spent on faces and hands, and if you don't count those, the models are barely better than Tekken 3 ones. So Saturn version models should have two versions: 1) Simplier ones. The polycount is similar to DoA models, minus some polygons that we would use for ground objects. More on this later. 2) Models with more polys on hands and faces. Those are streamed in right before the victory pose, similar to how Tobal 2 on PS1 does this. The latter feature should be optional for those who doesn't want a couple seconds of loadings before victory poses.

    - The inaccessible background elements outside arenas are 2D. No need to spend polys on them.

    - The arenas consist of two layers. First layer is VDP2 layer, like on VF2 and DoA. Then add few polygons on top for stuff like stairs, bumps, sand dunes and other uneven ground things. These should be as low poly as possible, but not completely ugly. Their job is to affect the gameplay, instead of being an eye candy. Try balance them with player models in the poly count department.

    - Evades are done with shoulder buttons.

    I think all of the above is completely possible, without the need of additional hardware cart.
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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Dead or Alive perfected the use of 2D layered backdrops, which look better than polygonal ones. 3D elements are better saved for the actual ring.

    I think that the ideal version of VF3 for Saturn would be high res 60fps with no shading/lighting, no 3D ring elements, but with optimal background composition, like DOA. I also think that a flat ring is better than attempting a faithful port.

    If gameplay/moves based on variable level floors needs to be altered, so be it. The ideal version for home consoles would be a version, not a port, which would lose too much on any platform.
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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    Eh makes as much sense as VF2 on Genesis.



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    Mega Driven Raging in the Streets cleeg's Avatar
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    I actually quite like 3, it's the 'black sheep' and there is more point in playing it over 4 in my opinion just to appreciate the differences. It does seem to have a more sterile flavour than the others though, it's just missing something from the atmosphere somehow. I think it's because the music sounds a little flat, whereas particularly 1 had an amazing soundtrack; really funky and fitting with the vibe. 2's was a bit more punchy and actionish but with some real standouts. I loved Wolf's stage music for instance. 4 Sounded good, but the next version of it, though a better game, had a boring generic heavy guitar sound. 5 I need to play a little more, but I seem to remember being OK with it.

    Enough digression..!

    If making a Saturn title I think if it was along the lines of a Virtua Fighter '2.5' we could be in business. That looked great and played like a dream, if the poly models were like that it'd look good enough for me. Also, we could even go so far as to get rid of background uneven stages and have it play more like 4, if this would make it possible for higher speed and such. If it made no difference keep them in.

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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    I'd say Last Bronx was also a good example of VDP2 compositing for 2D Background elements replicating 3D objects:



    I'd say that is really the game where they were able to make the illusion believable. The background elements move properly which games like Virtua Fighter 2 really didn't do quite right. So you don't see that odd border where the 3D floor suddenly clashes with the 2D backdrops. The backdrops are layered and angled properly and move correctly with the camera. So maybe something passable for VF3 could have been done using that game as a blueprint.

    There's also Digital Dance Mix which started out as AM2 using it to test VF3 models on the Saturn to see if a port could be doable:


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    Take the fake 3d backdrops from last Bronx, combine it with 3d fields from K1 Fighting Illusion, use the 3d models and lightning from Vipers/Megamix, and keep the gameplay like VF2 did.

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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Fighting Megamix shows what AM#2 would have done IMO and how VF 3 Saturn would have looked, if they had continued work on it, before dropping it for the DC version. It features some really quite a number of more polygons on the characters to VF II (Saturn) or Digital Dance mix , features some lovely lighting effects some nice 3D backgrounds and also includes quite a number of the move set from VF3Tb to boot
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    Megamix uses the exact same models as VF2, they just use more gouraud shading. And the VF3 moves are completely lost since the game plays too much like Vipers (even when set to VF mode).

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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Megamix uses the exact same models as VF2, they just use more gouraud shading. And the VF3 moves are completely lost since the game plays too much like Vipers (even when set to VF mode).
    Don't agree More Polygons are used especially on characters like Shun . It's a big difference and where the Fighter megamix VF2 characters look far more like the Model2 characters




    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 12-31-2018 at 12:29 AM.
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    WCPO Agent Orchid87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Eh makes as much sense as VF2 on Genesis.
    Except VF2 on Genesis is a bad game by Genesis standards. VF3 on Saturn could be the best fighter on Saturn, even simplified like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Don't agree More Polygons are used especially on characters like Shun . It's a big difference and where the Fighter megamix VF2 characters look far more like the Model2 characters
    You need to check your eyes. The VF character models are the exact same ones in both games.
    The only difference is the lightning (flat shading on model 2, no lightning on Saturn VF2, ugly gouraud shading on Vipers/Megamix). But that's down to the game engine, not the models.

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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    You need to check your eyes. The VF character models are the exact same ones in both games.
    The only difference is the lightning (flat shading on model 2, no lightning on Saturn VF2, ugly gouraud shading on Vipers/Megamix). But that's down to the game engine, not the models.
    I don't agree with you sorry. Fighting Viper's were using more polygons than VF 2 on the Saturn and even they were hugely improved for Fighter MegaMix and the polygons used on stuff like the Daytona car must have been quite a lot. VF 2 character's like Kage, Shun were vastly better in Megamix.

    I don't think the Saturn could have done much more than Megamix at 60 fps for any VF3 port.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid87 View Post
    Except VF2 on Genesis is a bad game by Genesis standards. VF3 on Saturn could be the best fighter on Saturn, even simplified like that.
    Agreed in just the same way one had GF II and Space Harrier on Master System hardware. Which despite the gulf in specs played really nice and one had a flavour of the Arcade versions.

    One could have a rather decent VF 3 on the Saturn using a improved Fighters MegaMix engine, that could have played and had a lot of the moves from VF3
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    counter of beans Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Cafeman's Avatar
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    Has it ever been revealed the technical polygon usage for Saturn VF, VF2, FMM, and LB? Personally, my eye says that LB character polygon builds > VF2 > FMM. But it is hard to tell. And for all I know, the original VF might use the same amount of polygons for characters, but doesn't have any of the texturing or lighting or shading.

    Concerning the OP and a VF3 on Saturn, I think the main obstacle would have been including Taka-arashi in the game. He is huge, and I have read that AM2 had problems balancing him with the other fighters due to his thickness and the engine.

    I would have been happy with either the FMM engine or a LB engine. There are 2 main differences that VF3 introduced -- the escape button, but also the elevation changes and sometimes a wall to interact with. None of the Saturn fighters had variable ground elevation, and although anything is eventually possible with time and money, I doubt we'd have been all that impressed by a Saturn VF3.

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    Fun fact, VF2 already has a mechanic for the characters to walk on uneven ground, you can see it when you do a winpose on the edge of the arena and one leg of the character is on the arena and the other is off.
    It also has one or two characters capable of doing evades (Shun and either Lion or Kage).
    So mostly they'd only need the horsepower to be able to draw the uneven, open arenas, while keeping a steady framerate. Megamix and Vipers already had the framerate totalling on stages with walls (not to mention the boxing arena that switched lightning direction periodically).

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