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Thread: What if people just appreciated the Saturn for how it actually was?

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    HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG Raging in the Streets Moirai's Avatar
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    Default What if people just appreciated the Saturn for how it actually was?

    In THIS universe.

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    Rebel scum Shining Hero MrMatthews's Avatar
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    U

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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    .
    me

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    you mean a half decent console that was outgunned by the ps1 and n64 ?
    Kitsune in a hat

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    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneNight View Post
    you mean a half decent console that was outgunned by the ps1 and n64 ?
    I wouldn't say that the N64 outgunned the Saturn, certainly not in terms of games anyway, but the PS1? Yep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    I wouldn't say that the N64 outgunned the Saturn, certainly not in terms of games anyway, but the PS1? Yep.
    It did in consumer appeal. Most people prefer Starfox over Panzer Dragoon and Mario over NiGHTS and OoT over Dark Savior. I'm not saying those are better or worse. Just that they had a wider appeal to the average consumer of the era. If more people saw things for what they were Grandia would be more praised than FFVII.



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    Master of Shinobi Mega Drive Bowlsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    It did in consumer appeal. Most people prefer Starfox over Panzer Dragoon and Mario over NiGHTS and OoT over Dark Savior. I'm not saying those are better or worse. Just that they had a wider appeal to the average consumer of the era. If more people saw things for what they were Grandia would be more praised than FFVII.
    The N64 had the advantage in brand recognition when it came to games, but a lot of that is down to Sega shooting themselves in the foot by not making a bona fide Sonic game for the Saturn and for ignoring other huge IP's like Streets of Rage. The most recognisable brand they own in the gaming world and, apart from Sonic R and Sonic Jam which don't count being a spin-off and a compilation, they ignored it on that particular system for reasons known only to themselves. Fuck NiGHTS, Sega should have had Yuji Naka focus solely on a new Sonic game. I'm also one of those who absolutely loved FFVII and played it to death but wasn't particularly grabbed by Grandia, so we'll have to agree to disagree on your last point.
    Last edited by Mega Drive Bowlsey; 04-05-2019 at 07:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    The N64 had the advantage in brand recognition when it came to games, but a lot of that is down to Sega shooting themselves in the foot by not making a bona fide Sonic game for the Saturn. The most recognisable brand they own in the gaming world and they ignored it on that particular system for reasons known only to themselves. Fuck NiGHTS, Sega should have had Yuji Naka focus solely on a new Sonic game. I'm also one of those who absolutely loved FFVII and played it to death but wasn't particularly grabbed by Grandia, so we'll have to agree to disagree on your last point.
    The reasons are pretty well documented at this point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    The reasons are pretty well documented at this point!
    There was never a satisfactory reason given as far as I'm concerned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as we all know, but it really was a no-brainer and it still doesn't explain why they ignored other huge IP's like the Streets of Rage franchise.

    I mean think about it. Pretty much everything that made the Mega Drive such a huge success in the west was largely absent or ignored in the marketing of the Sega Saturn from a software point of view. It has great games but, as Segata pointed out, not games or brands that the average consumer or casual gamer gave a shit about. The only reason the Saturn had such huge success in Japan was because Japanese gamers were still big on arcade games, whereas westerners were moving away from arcade games with limited content and appeal and on to games with more depth and content.
    Last edited by Mega Drive Bowlsey; 04-05-2019 at 08:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    There was never a satisfactory reason given as far as I'm concerned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as we all know, but it really was a no-brainer and it still doesn't explain why they ignored other huge IP's like the Streets of Rage franchise.

    I mean think about it. Pretty much everything that made the Mega Drive such a huge success in the west was largely absent or ignored in the marketing of the Sega Saturn from a software point of view. It has great games but, as Segata pointed out, not games or brands that the average consumer or casual gamer gave a shit about. The only reason the Saturn had such huge success in Japan was because Japanese gamers were still big on arcade games, whereas westerners were moving away from arcade games with limited content and appeal and on to games with more depth and content.
    The reasons are fairly straightforward in my opinion.

    It essentially comes down to Sega of America being unable to produce Saturn games. Since 1992, Sega had built up SOA to be independent, so that aside from a few special orders (basically, Streets of Rage, which SOA requested to be developed), all games targeting the American audience were produced at SOA. As Kalinske has said:

    What was the reason behind the lack of great software coming out of Sega of America?

    "If you mean development, this was because frankly the U.S. R&D team fought against the architecture of Saturn for quite some time," explains Kalinske, "fought for features that they thought would make it better, and thus while hoping for the improvements in hardware that didn't materialize, fell behind in development on the Saturn."

    If there was one area where the Saturn was hurting, it was in the sports arena. Electronic Arts' almost nonexistent Saturn library left it to Sega to almost solely cover all the major sports on the console, something the beleaguered U.S. development teams simply couldn't do.
    SOA was first distracted by the 32X and then their developers couldn't catch up with the Saturn hardware. This is what ultimately prevented a new Sonic game from coming out. All primary Sonic titles had been developed at SOA after the first title, and Sonic X-Treme was going to be the next. But the troubled development of X-Treme just reflects the overall difficulties that SOA was having with the hardware.

    Most of what made the Genesis successful in NA was the ability to put out titles that Americans wanted - basically, sports games and Sonic games. SOA didn't ignore this; they tried but couldn't get the titles out in time.

    When the Dreamcast was launched, then-Sega president Irimajiri explicitly stated that they were delaying the launch in the West to allow local developers extra time to learn the hardware in order to avoid what happened with the Saturn. The difference is obvious.

    So, yeah, the Saturn had to rely on Japanese software in all regions, but that wasn't by design. Well, in spirit with this thread, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people enjoy the Saturn because of its cool Japanese titles. Honestly, I could do without a gazillion sports titles on a console.


    https://web.archive.org/web/20160702...=3&cId=3142283

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    There was never a satisfactory reason given as far as I'm concerned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as we all know, but it really was a no-brainer and it still doesn't explain why they ignored other huge IP's like the Streets of Rage franchise.

    I mean think about it. Pretty much everything that made the Mega Drive such a huge success in the west was largely absent or ignored in the marketing of the Sega Saturn from a software point of view. It has great games but, as Segata pointed out, not games or brands that the average consumer or casual gamer gave a shit about. The only reason the Saturn had such huge success in Japan was because Japanese gamers were still big on arcade games, whereas westerners were moving away from arcade games with limited content and appeal and on to games with more depth and content.
    Exactly this, imagine the N64 launching with Pilotwings and no Mario game. Pilotwings is not bad but it wouldn't excite people like seeing Mario in 3D for the first time. How do you not put your own mascot on your new console right away?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    The reasons are fairly straightforward in my opinion.

    It essentially comes down to Sega of America being unable to produce Saturn games. Since 1992, Sega had built up SOA to be independent, so that aside from a few special orders (basically, Streets of Rage, which SOA requested to be developed), all games targeting the American audience were produced at SOA. As Kalinske has said:



    SOA was first distracted by the 32X and then their developers couldn't catch up with the Saturn hardware. This is what ultimately prevented a new Sonic game from coming out. All primary Sonic titles had been developed at SOA after the first title, and Sonic X-Treme was going to be the next. But the troubled development of X-Treme just reflects the overall difficulties that SOA was having with the hardware.

    Most of what made the Genesis successful in NA was the ability to put out titles that Americans wanted - basically, sports games and Sonic games. SOA didn't ignore this; they tried but couldn't get the titles out in time.

    When the Dreamcast was launched, then-Sega president Irimajiri explicitly stated that they were delaying the launch in the West to allow local developers extra time to learn the hardware in order to avoid what happened with the Saturn. The difference is obvious.

    So, yeah, the Saturn had to rely on Japanese software in all regions, but that wasn't by design. Well, in spirit with this thread, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people enjoy the Saturn because of its cool Japanese titles. Honestly, I could do without a gazillion sports titles on a console.


    https://web.archive.org/web/20160702...=3&cId=3142283
    Interesting read. Thanks for the info. So basically SOA struggled to produce software for the Saturn due to them never really learning how to program for it effectively. SOA always struggled on the software side of things, especially when compared to SOJ. Quite a few duds on the Mega Drive were courtesy of SOA. Don't get me wrong they made some great games too, but it's fair to say that SOA didn't have anything like the attention to detail and quality that SOJ demonstrated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post

    It essentially comes down to Sega of America being unable to produce Saturn games. Since 1992, Sega had built up SOA to be independent, so that aside from a few special orders (basically, Streets of Rage, which SOA requested to be developed), all games targeting the American audience were produced at SOA. As Kalinske has said:
    Sega West just weren't good enough and didn't bring up their development or 3rd party development pipelines up to 32Bit standards either for the 32X or Saturn. They set up in the SEGA Away Team in 93 and the best game they developed was BUG, The less said about the likes of Gen War, Mr Bones, Three Dirty Dwarfs, Congo, NHL All-Star Hockey the better. Still, SEGA America did better than SEGA Europe who despite a massive investment of nearly 20 million USA dollars from SEGA Japan to set up a new development studio in London, didn't get one game out the door (for either the 32X or Saturn)

    SEGA would have been so much better off being like SONY and Nintendo and where all R&D was done just in Japan and the Western teams just had to use what they were given and develope for one main console and where the likes of key IP is only developed, by the studio that made them; like EAD for Mario/Zelda or PD for Grand Turismo . That was the main issues with SEGA West at the time, a lack of direction and focus.. Trying to do too many things, support too many systems and trying to please too many people.


    BTW, people like to make out that SEGA Of America killed off Streets Of Rage on the DC, Due to no one at SOA knowing of the IP (which I don't buy) If SOJ wanted to make a new Streets Of Rage game they would have. I think the lack of a SOR game owe's far more the genere being very niche by the late 90's and the dire sales of SOR III And it was quite clear Sonic X was in a mess right the start of its life on the Mega Drive, before the move to the 32X and then the Saturn. Really If Sonic Team couldn't make one, SEGA should have let Traveller's tales make a 3D Sonic for them
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    The N64 had the advantage in brand recognition when it came to games, but a lot of that is down to Sega shooting themselves in the foot by not making a bona fide Sonic game for the Saturn and for ignoring other huge IP's like Streets of Rage. The most recognisable brand they own in the gaming world and, apart from Sonic R and Sonic Jam which don't count being a spin-off and a compilation, they ignored it on that particular system for reasons known only to themselves. Fuck NiGHTS, Sega should have had Yuji Naka focus solely on a new Sonic game. I'm also one of those who absolutely loved FFVII and played it to death but wasn't particularly grabbed by Grandia, so we'll have to agree to disagree on your last point.
    Giving Sonic to SOA to developer was a sure Cock up. SEGA Should have had a Studio in SOJ to make the title and for sure SEGA Japan should have worked harder to get Square (in a feature with Retro Square said one of the main reasons for going with SONY was due to SONY saying it would push the game in the West) but for me even more of a cock up was not bring Grandia to the west. I will disgaree with you on Streets Of Rage though.. It was a IP that was in an genre that was fast fading (even inthe Arcades) and where SOR III saw horrible sales.
    No one more than me would have loved to seen a 2D SOR on the Saturn, but I can see why it was never green lite and thats to overlook how wonderful Die Hard Arcade was, you couldn't have made a better 3D beat them up than that imo.
    But it was geting to the point that while it could be ok in the Aracdes, not many were happy in the late 90's to hand over 50 for a game that could be finished in less than 2 hours, that style of game was on its way out sadly...
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