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Thread: What if people just appreciated the Saturn for how it actually was?

  1. #16
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Exactly this, imagine the N64 launching with Pilotwings and no Mario game. Pilotwings is not bad but it wouldn't excite people like seeing Mario in 3D for the first time. How do you not put your own mascot on your new console right away?
    By trying to support too much hardware at once...

    Sonic Team was busy developing S3&K since that's where the money was in the NA market at the time. Early Saturn game development began at the end of '93 (Panzer Dragoon), but S&K wasn't released until the end of '94. There was no way they could have made a launch title for the Saturn. NiGHTS wouldn't even come out until the middle of '96.

    On top of that, SOA had shifted its attention to the 32X. Sonic X-Treme started out as a 32X title. That didn't last long. It was all too unfocused.

    The Dreamcast got a lot of things right - one of them being a Sonic launch title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    Interesting read. Thanks for the info. So basically SOA struggled to produce software for the Saturn due to them never really learning how to program for it effectively. SOA always struggled on the software side of things, especially when compared to SOJ. Quite a few duds on the Mega Drive were courtesy of SOA. Don't get me wrong they made some great games too, but it's fair to say that SOA didn't have anything like the attention to detail and quality that SOJ demonstrated.
    There are a lot of factors related to this (see all of Melf's research), but it certainly seems that SOA's primary concern was marketability. And that's certainly where you want to focus to boost your market share, although I have no doubt that it hurts the legacy of the product. In Japan, Sega president/autocrat Hayao Nakayama was much more focused on creating fun/innovative games (Treasure's president Maegawa has attested to the incredible freedom they got to make whatever they wanted) - and then basically not marketing them. The contrast is striking.

  2. #17
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    By trying to support too much hardware at once...

    Sonic Team was busy developing S3&K since that's where the money was in the NA market at the time. Early Saturn game development began at the end of '93 (Panzer Dragoon), but S&K wasn't released until the end of '94. There was no way they could have made a launch title for the Saturn. NiGHTS wouldn't even come out until the middle of '96..
    They was no way a real 3D main Sonic game would have been ready in 1995. The mistake SEGA Japan made was 2 fold. Giving the 3D project to SEGA America, when a consumer Team in SEGA Japan should have been handling the project and not making it clear early in, that a 3D Sonic game would be made for the Saturn.
    For the western launch I would have just had an updated Sonic CD port with a fancy new 3D Bonus section and Cinepak FMV and also include Sonic the Arcade game in the package. That for me would have been enough for the Saturn's launch inthe west.

    The Dreamcast got a lot of things right - one of them being a Sonic launch title
    It wasn't quite a launch title in Japan and it should be noted that the game only came out so early for the DC becasue of its being dropped for the Saturn and the 2 years worth of Saturn Sonic Adv work was carried over to the DC title.
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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    It's not uncommon for a launch title to be a game that started development on a previous system. Ryse Son of Rome is one of those.



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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    It's not uncommon for a launch title to be a game that started development on a previous system. Ryse Son of Rome is one of those.
    Not saying otherwise, It happened with Luigi Mansion. But with out turning Saturn's Sonic Adv into a DC production midway through (it was meant to ship in fall 97) it never would have hit the DC launch and even then it couldn't make it and was delayed for over a month and coming in just before Christmas; my import shop got stock in on the 24th of December 1998 (what a Christmas day I had

    What was more uncommon was other than Nintendo, more systems launches were pretty poor for launch software, or with a AAA sequel to a fan fav IP and the way some people talk, it was like Sonic launched a SEGA console. It never launched any and the launch software of Mega Drive was dire in Japan and the USA and how many fan fav Master System IP did SEGA carry over for the launch of the Mega Drive? all we got was a pretty average version of Thunderblade and a rather crap Space Harrier II (did sound great mind) and if one looks at the Cube there was no fan fav IP launching with the system at all

    Far far too much is made of the launch Saturn in the USA. Lots of systems have poor launch software, did not have sequels to fan fav IP at launch, costs loads were horrible to develop on and where the developers outside the region of the console developer, had little time to get used to the hardware.
    Not least the PS3 and forget 6 months, the USA teams had 6 days between the domestic launch and then the international launch. Nobody cares mind, because the PS3 went on to sell loads
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    Ninetailed Noob Raging in the Streets KitsuneNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post

    On top of that, SOA had shifted its attention to the 32X. Sonic X-Treme started out as a 32X title. That didn't last long. It was all too unfocused.

    The Dreamcast got a lot of things right - one of them being a Sonic launch title.
    but by then the damage was done after the failure of the saturn and the 32X and sega unceremoniously killing the megadrive in mid 96
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    Ninetailed Noob Raging in the Streets KitsuneNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post

    Far far too much is made of the launch Saturn in the USA. Lots of systems have poor launch software, did not have sequels to fan fav IP at launch, costs loads were horrible to develop on and where the developers outside the region of the console developer, had little time to get used to the hardware.
    Not least the PS3 and forget 6 months, the USA teams had 6 days between the domestic launch and then the international launch. Nobody cares mind, because the PS3 went on to sell loads
    yes but it didnt help along with other bonhead moves such as letting the saturn languish for months
    a too high price tag
    not pushing the fact that you got internal ram and a pack in game something the ps1 lacked
    killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
    sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts

    quite frankly if the saturn launch in late 95 say november with daytona usa sega rally vf2 and virtua cop as its launch line up things might be quite different
    but hindsight and all that
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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneNight View Post
    yes but it didnt help along with other bonhead moves such as letting the saturn languish for months
    a too high price tag
    not pushing the fact that you got internal ram and a pack in game something the ps1 lacked
    killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
    sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts

    quite frankly if the saturn launch in late 95 say november with daytona usa sega rally vf2 and virtua cop as its launch line up things might be quite different
    but hindsight and all that
    Few things not quite accurate there though

    Sega didn't kill the Genesis in NA in 1996. It always shocks me how often that is said on this website (actually, it's usually worse, with people saying Sega killed the Genesis in 1994!). Most likely, the people that post here just didn't notice since they had long since moved onto the next generation.

    Here's a quote from a 1/1997 press release from SOA:

    Sega Genesis remained a strong seller for hardware and software in 1996 for gamers just entering the category. Sega hit its projections on the mark, selling 1.1 million hardware units and 3 million Sega Genesis games.

    While the company recently announced it will dispose of all remaining 16-bit peripheral inventory, specifically the Genesis 32X and Sega CD products, it will continue to sell Genesis hardware and software in the coming years.

    Sega continues to produce new gaming experiences that push the Sega Genesis platform to new heights, including the first three dimensional 16-bit game, "Sonic 3D Blast," and the arcade hit, "Virtua Fighter 2," which shipped late last year.
    A few months after that, Sega dropped the price of the Genesis down to $79.99. It's not clear how many units were sold after that, and then in 1998, Sega licensed the Genesis to Majesco, who sold the Genesis 3.

    Also, Sega did price-match the PlayStation with the Saturn (although sometimes slightly late), and the base Saturn unit did not come with a pack-in game (the unit that was price-matched with the PS1).

  8. #23
    Ninetailed Noob Raging in the Streets KitsuneNight's Avatar
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    ^ im from europe though and from what i recall from a mean machines sega magazine is that the megadrive was killed in 96
    but its been a while and most of that post there was done from memory
    so i should just dig that mms issue up again

    the base unit saturn came with virtua fighter 1 as a pack in in certain regions in europe
    my original one did and that was new old stock
    https://segaretro.org/Saturn_consoles_in_Western_Europe
    it also came with several other pack in games but there are virtua fighter 1 bundles in there

    there is also a letter in sega saturn magazine 3 with a reader being surprised at virtua fighter being in the box
    https://segaretro.org/index.php?titl...03.pdf&page=32

    ( its split over 2 pages )
    so there were saturns out there with vf1 as a pack in
    in europe at least
    Last edited by KitsuneNight; 04-06-2019 at 04:31 PM.
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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
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    The launch Saturn in NA came with Virtua Fighter as a pack-in (sorry, not sure about Europe). The cost was $399.

    In NA, the PlayStation launched in September 1995 at $299, and then in response in October 1995, Sega released a version of the Saturn that did not have a pack-in but was priced the same as the PlayStation at $299. There was also a version with a pack-in, but it cost more - I believe $349.

    People make a big deal about the Saturn being priced higher than the PlayStation, but that just goes to show the effectiveness of Sony's marketing (that whole E3 thing). The Saturn was priced similar to the PlayStation most of the time (but as I said, there were some gaps). I mean, that's what a price war is.

  10. #25
    Ninetailed Noob Raging in the Streets KitsuneNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    The launch Saturn in NA came with Virtua Fighter as a pack-in (sorry, not sure about Europe). The cost was $399.

    In NA, the PlayStation launched in September 1995 at $299, and then in response in October 1995, Sega released a version of the Saturn that did not have a pack-in but was priced the same as the PlayStation at $299. There was also a version with a pack-in, but it cost more - I believe $349.

    People make a big deal about the Saturn being priced higher than the PlayStation, but that just goes to show the effectiveness of Sony's marketing (that whole E3 thing). The Saturn was priced similar to the PlayStation most of the time (but as I said, there were some gaps). I mean, that's what a price war is.
    i base most of my information of sega saturn magazine uk
    the saturn was 399 pounds when it was launched and came with vf 1
    and then it was dropped to 299 pounds in time for christmas 95 with a pretty damn good line up of sega rally vf 2 and virtua cop 1

    for the majority of 96 it hovered around 299 from what i recall

    but ssmuk 14 has a interesting list of what was on offer for the uk at the very least during holiday 96
    and the saturn was going for 229 pounds with world wide soccer 98
    https://segaretro.org/index.php?titl...14.pdf&page=53

    considering the saturn had build in ram and a pack in game things the ps1 lacked and you had to buy seperate 399 doesnt seem so bad
    299 makes it worthwhile
    and 229 is a steal

    in pounds that is
    that would be 266 euro nowadays inflation not included
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  11. #26
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    I kept seeing Genesis 3 from 97 up to 99 in Shopko a lesser Walmart of sorts when I was a teen. Almost got one but heard some people could not play all their games on it. 1998 I got a SNES Jr instead and still have it. Sadly no Saturn anything in site there.



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  12. #27
    Outrunner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Sega continues to produce new gaming experiences that push the Sega Genesis platform to new heights, including the first three dimensional 16-bit game, "Sonic 3D Blast," and the arcade hit, "Virtua Fighter 2," which shipped late last year..
    How could Sega possibly call Sonic 3D Blast "the first three dimensional 16-bit game"?
    In 1997?
    After games like Virtua Racing (or for that matter, Star Fox) had already been released?

    If an isometric view is all it takes then Marble Madness was a 16-bit 3D game back in 1984.

    I know I'm ranting off topic now but that was a ridiculous statement even for a press release.

  13. #28
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
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    Haha, I didn't even catch that. What an absurd statement.

  14. #29
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneNight View Post
    not pushing the fact that you got internal ram and a pack in game something the ps1 lacked
    killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
    sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts
    I get that, But its hard for the PR dept. Most people will just focus on the price of the actual console. I mean in the UK not only did you get a free game, no need for a memory card, you also got an official RGB Scart lead (on its own 30) but still it was a hard sell when one see's 299 vs 399.

    killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
    sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts
    That is just a myth that is said on the likes of here . SEGA were still selling and manufacturing Mega Drive units in 1996,still publishing games and even in Japan printing a Mega CD game with Shadowrun in 1996 hardly what anyone could class killing off a system. The 32X was designed to prolong the life of the Mega Drive , not kill it off even. The main issue for SEGA was it looked to keep the Mega Drive going for too long, people seem to forget that it came out in 88 and that the Snes came out nearly 2 year's latter. In 1996 the market for 16 bit software wasn't there, people had enough and were looking to move on. Both Nintendo and SEGA were said to have over 300 million worth of 16 bit unsold carts in warehouses. When the N64 was ready to go, one can count one hand the ammout of Snes games Nintendo looked to produce or make for the Snes after the N64 hit the market (just like it dropped the N64 when the Cube was ready to go )

    Its easy to say what SEGA should have done now. I say now, what I said at the time. I would have stopped all Mega Drive In-House games in 1995 and moved them to the Saturn. So we could have had Comix Zone in 24bit colour, a CD soundtrack and 2 player mode, no 32X so the Saturn would also have Virtual Racing Delux, Doom, Starwars ready for launch, Would have had a port of Sonic CD and look to launch in late June or July when Virtual Fighter Remix, Clockwork Knight II (I would have packed in Clockwork knight as well) and Bug were all readly to go.

    So at launch in July 1995 one would be looking at a launch line up of Comix Zone, Virtua Racing Delux, Star Wars Arcade, Bug, Panzer Dragoon, Virtual Fighting Remix, Sonic CD, Clockwork Knight II, Pebble Beach Golf Which would have been more than a decent launch line up for both the Pal and USA market. Not that I think was the issue. For me the issue was SEGA not focused on one system and trying to support too many systems and that lead to a mix PR message and mix development and mixed 3rd party development support. That for me was the real issue, along with no Sonic 3D game from SEGA Japan
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 04-07-2019 at 12:29 AM.
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  15. #30
    HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG Raging in the Streets Moirai's Avatar
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    how about a 2D sonic 4 for saturn

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