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Thread: Sega and Sony: New Insight into the Partnership That Never Came to Be

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    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Why do you think their pride was hurt? They had preliminary discussions that never resulted in anything. I didn't translate this part, but Sato says that such discussions of partnerships happened every so often from different companies and almost never resulted in anything. I think Sega would have liked to partner with Sony due to the hardware/manufacturing advantages, but not if the terms weren't clear and balanced.



    This is probably too much work to correct, but I think you are not understanding the basic concepts of what Kalinske has suggested.

    Nowhere has he said that he or anyone else at Sega/Sony of America had access to ANY information on the PlayStation or its chipset (you seem to be the only one suggesting and then refuting that in this thread).

    What he HAS said is that he and Olafsson/Schulhoff got together, discussed a possible partnership, and put together some kind of basic design doc to present to the people in Japan.

    So, they go to Japan, and Kalinske brings up the idea of working with Sony to the Sega execs, and they tell him that's not going to work. Of course, what Kalinske doesn't know is that Sega has already been in talks with Sony and decided that a partnership won't be to their benefit.

    That's entirely believable, and really, given the lack of details, what is there to disagree with?
    The trouble with that set of events was Olafsson already knew of the PS and that team were locked into a deal with Nintendo and that would exclude SEGA Japan from working with SONY and why I would put to you SEGA Japan went to the likes of JVC for the Mega CD drive.
    But more to the point there's the real issue of no one inside SEGA or SONY supporting Tom's recollection of events, that's more of the issue; Donald Trump might like to paint a different picture to history, doesn't mean he's right... just because he's said so

    And just look at the PlayStation. The name was kept from the SNES PlayStation system the PS logo the same colour as the Super Famicom, The grills on the side much like the Super Famicom, The Colour of the system the same and the PS Joypad almost the exact same button layout.
    Its screams Nintendo and nothing at all to do with SEGA at almost every level
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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The trouble with that set of events was Olafsson already knew of the PS and that team were locked into a deal with Nintendo and that would exclude SEGA Japan from working with SONY and why I would put to you SEGA Japan went to the likes of JVC for the Mega CD drive.
    But more to the point there's the real issue of no one inside SEGA or SONY supporting Tom's recollection of events, that's more of the issue; Donald Trump might like to paint a different picture to history, doesn't mean he's right... just because he's said so

    And just look at the PlayStation. The name was kept from the SNES PlayStation system the PS logo the same colour as the Super Famicom, The grills on the side much like the Super Famicom, The Colour of the system the same and the PS Joypad almost the exact same button layout.
    Its screams Nintendo and nothing at all to do with SEGA at almost every level
    What? Any discussions between Sega and Sony occurred after Sony broke off with Nintendo. Your statement about Olafsson doesn't make sense.

    That fact that nobody else has confirmed Kalinkse's statements doesn't negate them. If anything, it just shows how minor/undeveloped the ideas were. But that doesn't contradict what he's said. He's never claimed it was some grand, fully-developed plan that they worked on for months.

    To be blunt, unless you have concrete evidence (and by now it's clear that you don't), please stop accusing Tom Kalinske of having fabricated his statements about trying to partner with Sony.

    It really, really does not contribute to the discussion.

    If anything, you should take issue with Kalinske saying this was "the stupidest decision in the history of business." Trying to refute him with baseless accusations isn't going to get you anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    What? Any discussions between Sega and Sony occurred after Sony broke off with Nintendo. Your statement about Olafsson doesn't make sense.
    Thank for you just debating and all in nice good faith. What I would put to you if this was at the time of the deal broke off (in 91) Then in the Edge Feature on the making of PS (conducted with various SONY staff) the decision not to work with anyone at all, was made by Ohga (SONY Japan then president) who said we (SONY) must chart our own course in 1991. So that would have put pay to any hope SEGA would have had of working with SONY.

    When I look at the PS, its seems a BIG Fu*k You! to Nintendo..

    SONY kept the name of the system and pretty much ripped off the look of the Super Famicom and went hell for leather to upstage Nintendo. If you or other's can show and point to interviews of how SEGA could have for various SEGA or SONY staff, then fair enough. I don't think Tom was being straight that's all, on this matter, much like Tony Blair can still say Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction . I liked what Tom did with the Mega CD, quite a lot of what he did with the Mega Drive and tbh if he had stayed on, Working Designs would have still be on the Saturn and I'm sure Tom would have green light a Saturn Translation of Grandia. This isn't just about hating on Tom (I hate Bernie Stolar and Scoichiro Irimajiri far more tbh)

    It's just on a point of truth and how really is telling the truth. I get (and I am sorry) that people hate my guts and want me banned for not liking Tom, but by the same token I happen to like SEGA Japan and credit Hayao Nakayama for giving me the SEGA I loved; and while I'm not happy with the equally stuck record of 'SEGA Japan blamed for everything' I don't call for bans or hate on others. I look to defend Sega Japan and just point out why I think it's wrong, not true or faith. In this case, I don't think SOJ is to blame

    I don't see the evidence that shows SEGA could have had SONY make its console Hardware for the 32bit generation, that's all. But there's always a smoking gun somewhere
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 03-20-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    To be blunt, unless you have concrete evidence (and by now it's clear that you don't), please stop accusing Tom Kalinske of having fabricated his statements about trying to partner with Sony.

    It really, really does not contribute to the discussion.

    If anything, you should take issue with Kalinske saying this was "the stupidest decision in the history of business." Trying to refute him with baseless accusations isn't going to get you anywhere.
    To be blunt you really think this is true?



    Can you point to any interview with Joe Miller that could back up?
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 03-20-2019 at 01:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Can't we ban this guy already?
    Agreed



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Why do you think their pride was hurt? They had preliminary discussions that never resulted in anything. I didn't translate this part, but Sato says that such discussions of partnerships happened every so often from different companies and almost never resulted in anything. I think Sega would have liked to partner with Sony due to the hardware/manufacturing advantages, but not if the terms weren't clear and balanced.
    I was referring to the part where they sat down to talk about joining forces to beat Nintendo. Then the Sony guy starts talking about his last vacation in Sweden or that time he was allowed to conduct an orchestra, and he keeps changing the subject every single time he is asked about working together. That deal would've meant a lot to Sega since it could've allowed them to beat their arch-rival Nintendo, and the Sony guy treats the whole discussion as a joke.

    It feels just insulting, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Thank for you just debating and all in nice good faith. What I would put to you if this was at the time of the deal broke off (in 91) Then in the Edge Feature on the making of PS (conducted with various SONY staff) the decision not to work with anyone at all, was made by Ohga (SONY Japan then president) who said we (SONY) must chart our own course in 1991. So that would have put pay to any hope SEGA would have had of working with SONY.

    When I look at the PS, its seems a BIG Fu*k You! to Nintendo..

    SONY kept the name of the system and pretty much ripped off the look of the Super Famicom and went hell for leather to upstage Nintendo. If you or other's can show and point to interviews of how SEGA could have for various SEGA or SONY staff, then fair enough. I don't think Tom was being straight that's all, on this matter, much like Tony Blair can still say Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction . I liked what Tom did with the Mega CD, quite a lot of what he did with the Mega Drive and tbh if he had stayed on, Working Designs would have still be on the Saturn and I'm sure Tom would have green light a Saturn Translation of Grandia. This isn't just about hating on Tom (I hate Bernie Stolar and Scoichiro Irimajiri far more tbh)

    It's just on a point of truth and how really is telling the truth. I get (and I am sorry) that people hate my guts and want me banned for not liking Tom, but by the same token I happen to like SEGA Japan and credit Hayao Nakayama for giving me the SEGA I loved; and while I'm not happy with the equally stuck record of 'SEGA Japan blamed for everything' I don't call for bans or hate on others. I look to defend Sega Japan and just point out why I think it's wrong, not true or faith. In this case, I don't think SOJ is to blame

    I don't see the evidence that shows SEGA could have had SONY make its console Hardware for the 32bit generation, that's all. But there's always a smoking gun somewhere
    Nobody hates you and nobody wants you banned for liking Tom Kalinske, that's ludicrous. Also nobody 'blames Sega of Japan for everything', at least I don't! (sigh) This is the last time I get involved in these 'debates' as those of you who seem to have the biggest problem with TA, and these debates going around and around in frigging circles, seem to be the same people instigating and inciting these 'debates' in the first place. Have fun! I'm off to get drunk and play games.

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    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Very interesting article. Always love hearing from Sato-san. Is this information from the Japanese retrospective on Sato that was translated a few months ago?

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    I was referring to the part where they sat down to talk about joining forces to beat Nintendo. Then the Sony guy starts talking about his last vacation in Sweden or that time he was allowed to conduct an orchestra, and he keeps changing the subject every single time he is asked about working together. That deal would've meant a lot to Sega since it could've allowed them to beat their arch-rival Nintendo, and the Sony guy treats the whole discussion as a joke.

    It feels just insulting, really.
    Yeah, I see what you mean. Well, the only reason both sides met was because Sega chairman Okawa set it up, so there's a real possibility that Ohga wasn't at all interested and was just doing his friend a favor. Of course, the whole story of how he almost bought Sega ten years before makes it sound like he was trying to remind Sega of its place relative to Sony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Very interesting article. Always love hearing from Sato-san. Is this information from the Japanese retrospective on Sato that was translated a few months ago?
    This is from the same 100+ page interview he did last year. It really is one of the best treasure troves of Sega lore ever documented, but it's a bit of a slog to get through.

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    Of course, the whole story of how he almost bought Sega ten years
    No doubt various corps had a look at SEGA when Gulf Western put it up for Sale. That would just be a standard business practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    This is from the same 100+ page interview he did last year. It really is one of the best treasure troves of Sega lore ever documented, but it's a bit of a slog to get through.
    So why Sato-san so surprised at the SONY tech? If like, we are led to believe Tom meet not only with Sony Japan, but SEGA Japan to offer a SONY made a console for SEGA?. Can you provide an interview or quote from Joe Miller that even comes close to backing Tom up? I saw more than 2 interviews with Joe, that confirm he and SOA had the N64 chipset (and also with the makers of the hardware too) and that he wasn't quite happy that it was turned down by SEGA Japan, but nothing on working with SONY what so-ever.
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  11. #41
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    There was no PlayStation prototype between the announcement of Nintendo teaming up with Phillips and Ken approaching the Sony brass with his hardware pitch for the PS. I doubt there was a prototype in 1992, considering what he was proposing at the time had never been done before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    There was no PlayStation prototype between the announcement of Nintendo teaming up with Phillips and Ken approaching the Sony brass with his hardware pitch for the PS. I doubt there was a prototype in 1992, considering what he was proposing at the time had never been done before.
    There was a prototype in mid-1992, at least according to Kutaragi in the book Revolutionaries at Sony. It was completely different from what they had been working on with Nintendo.

    Kutaragi says that from mid-1991 (Nintendo debacle) to mid-1992, he was completely consumed by the legal aspects of the case, but that his team secretly worked on a stand-alone prototype during that time.

    At the mid-1992 meeting to decide the fate of the project (either continue trying to work with Nintendo, go solo, or give up), he presented the working prototype to Ohga and the other Sony execs, and that's when Ohga gave the go-ahead to proceed independently.

    By early/mid-1993, they were showing real-time demos running on the hardware to large crowds of developers, including the famous T-Rex demo. Developers were speechless at how amazing it looked, but they said it wouldn't be possible to make games for. Jump to October 1993 - Virtua Fighter comes out from Sega in arcades, and suddenly developers understand the potential of 3D and begin to sign up with Sony.

    Anyway, that's just a quick summary from the book. I highly recommend checking it out, considering how cheap it is.

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    Wasn’t that prototype using a stand in 3D processor, until he get approval for the million gate graphics processor that ended up in the real prototype?
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    There was a prototype in mid-1992, at least according to Kutaragi in the book Revolutionaries at Sony. It was completely different from what they had been working on with Nintendo.

    Kutaragi says that from mid-1991 (Nintendo debacle) to mid-1992, he was completely consumed by the legal aspects of the case, but that his team secretly worked on a stand-alone prototype during that time.

    At the mid-1992 meeting to decide the fate of the project (either continue trying to work with Nintendo, go solo, or give up), he presented the working prototype to Ohga and the other Sony execs, and that's when Ohga gave the go-ahead to proceed independently.

    By early/mid-1993, they were showing real-time demos running on the hardware to large crowds of developers, including the famous T-Rex demo. Developers were speechless at how amazing it looked, but they said it wouldn't be possible to make games for. Jump to October 1993 - Virtua Fighter comes out from Sega in arcades, and suddenly developers understand the potential of 3D and begin to sign up with Sony.

    Anyway, that's just a quick summary from the book. I highly recommend checking it out, considering how cheap it is.
    Yep, Ken told EDGE this was the case
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Anyway, that's just a quick summary from the book.
    . What about this scenario Gryson. What about if it was true about Olaf Olafsson Tom and Joe meeting up and coming up with tech spec's. Who's to say Olaf wasn't just playing along with SEGA and pretending to go along with Tom; while in full knowledge of what SONY Japan was up too. That way he would have SEGA tech specs and could relate back to his paymasters at SONY Japan of SEGA's spec's giving SONY all the knowledge they ever needed to completely blow up any concept or console SEGA could come up with.

    Business is full of backstabbing and a pretty ruthless place none more so than Nintendo who backstabbed the likes of SONY, Argonaut software and DMA Design
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