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Thread: @Sega: fix the Mega Drive Mini sound delay or riot!

  1. #196
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreZZ View Post
    RetroRGB measured the audio delay and its 4ms, which is on par with emulation On raspberry pi, and around 3to 7ms for input lag, which is fairly good for emulation https://youtu.be/TC_mDhY4-3w
    You mean 4 frames, not ms.

    Again, what none of these tests are considering is that there is variation among different units.

    Somebody seriously needs to get several Minis and compare them.

  2. #197
    Road Rasher
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    Yeah thats what I meant, its good compared to joe’s 11 frames measurement. My mini is fine, it could have been better but its definitely playable and worth the price, i’ve been spoiled by mega sg and blast16!

  3. #198
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Just to make it clear: it was still debugged on real hardware despite that.

    …you know, do we have any consistent measurements across all games? I wonder if there's lag coming from communication with the sound driver (which would be indeed an emulation issue if so). We aren't going to know for sure if some minis have the lag fixed or not unless we're comparing the same games.
    Unless already mentioned, DF Retro did a frame-by-frame analysis and comparison, and found that the sound effects specifically lag behind real hardware by a few frames.


  4. #199
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Yes, it's already been mentioned. That's what prompted this thread to be posted.

    The problem is that retail units may or may not match the lag that Game Sack and DF Retro showed in their review units (11 frames of audio lag).


  5. #200
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Very interesting, so perhaps they've fixed it in a new batch. That's great!

  6. #201
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    How about European Mega Drive Mini units ?
    Lists of MD games: officially licensed (~925) @ cartridge sizes @ Top 5 @ Top 250 (controversial) @ Sonic hacks @ best title screens @ Arcade ports (150) @ best European

  7. #202
    Tiido's apprentice Road Rasher TulioAdriano's Avatar
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    After 20 minutes of test I can say the audio lag is negligible. In any case, the RetroRGB lag test is conclusive. There is some, which is to be expected since all emulators have sound buffers.

    For me what bothered the most was the input lag. To be honest I found it more noticeable than playing on RetroPie with GenesisPlusGX. I need to spend more time with it and make more comparisons to other emulators, but I'm more hopeful about the quick progress at ModMyClassic being able to either tweak some settings or allow RetroArch cores to be used instead of m2engage.

    Streets of Rage 2 suffers especially on Go Straight (Stage 1 song) since the initial synth is clearly sounding inaccurate, that leads to their YM2612 emulation being inferior to the open source cores. That sound inaccuracy is exactly the same as the one found on the Genesis Collection on Switch which is also handled by M2.

    The easter-egg on the Tower of Power is a nice touch, only people who deeply care about what they're doing would do something like that. I wonder if any of the lucky people who got the US version will open to see if they did the same thing.

    Edit: To add that I don't believe there are different "fixed versions" of systems out there. This is likely to be present across all units, and all regions. And especially I don't believe there are "more lag on game a, than on game b" the emulation is the same for all games, so the emulator introduced lag will be the same for all. It's possible that different games will take different times to process their sound effects, but that will be also present when playing on the original hardware. I suppose nobody every paid attention to these differences, that's all.
    Last edited by TulioAdriano; 09-22-2019 at 09:21 PM.

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  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulioAdriano View Post
    Edit: To add that I don't believe there are different "fixed versions" of systems out there. This is likely to be present across all units, and all regions.
    What leads you to say that? How do you account for the clear differences in the videos that people are posting? Some have 10+ frames of audio lag, some have almost none.

  9. #204
    The Cat in the Hat Shining Hero NeoVamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chilled View Post
    How about European Mega Drive Mini units ?
    These will of course have 20% more sound delay than US units.

  10. #205
    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    I dare you guys to do this very test. Lag is there, even on retail units. Sega apologists need not apply.

    https://twitter.com/GameSack/status/1175863713288486912

  11. #206
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Meanwhile I found somebody in Japan claiming that people are getting confused by LCD lag… I guess the Japanese minis are indeed fixed (and in fact it seems the Japanese side of things was handled better in general).

    What are the odds that it got rushed in the US despite having the same release date? (・~・)

    EDIT: oh, and before I forget, emulation can affect lag differently between games, especially since there are two completely unrelated CPUs that can affect sound output. Depending how the emulator decides to synchronize both CPUs (and how to synchronize audio emulation against them) it can easily add up a few frames of lag. And then throw in the audio buffer's own lag on top of that. And whether it's using one or two audio buffers… (more buffers reduce risk of dropout but add more lag)
    Last edited by Sik; 09-23-2019 at 12:55 AM.

  12. #207
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    I ended up order an Asian region variant from play Asia, guess I'll see if that has lag. Went that way as it pays homage to my original MD (which is a Japanese machine converted to 50HZ and sold in Asia) and the games seem to be a mix of the good ones from the PAL/US and Japanese versions. It misses SF II and Yu Yu Hakusho, but I have better versions of SF on my real Sega hardware and can add Yu Yu onto my Mega SD. Even with costs for delivery it works out cheaper than buying a PAL unit and 2 decent 6 button controllers for it.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer View Post
    I dare you guys to do this very test. Lag is there, even on retail units. Sega apologists need not apply.

    https://twitter.com/GameSack/status/1175863713288486912
    Well, that raises some questions:

    1) I thought you reported 11 frames of lag, but now it's 8? Sorry to fuss over details, but that seems like something to get right the first time.

    2) What is your capture setup for HDMI? Have you calibrated it? How?

    3) How do you account for RetroRGB's test that showed significantly less lag than yours? He is on a tested setup (no audio delay introduced in HDMI capture), recording and analyzing at 60 fps.

  14. #209
    Toejam is a wiener. Master of Shinobi SEGA-Jorge's Avatar
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    I think the variation in time/lag is mostly due to the difficulty in capturing the small fractions of inaccuracies, and perhaps a game to game timing/lag scenario. I honestly think it's way too small for me to notice, but I could be wrong. I only play on original hardware, and go into every emulation experience with the assumption that there will be issues with emulating sound, possible display lag (due to HD TV's), and some input lag. I just assume that was the issue all the time with emulation, as I've literally never played emulated Genesis that was 100% accurate.

    All this testing and back and forth really serves to outline how close these mini consoles are getting, but also how difficult it is to get it just right. Thanks to Retro RGB and GameSack for all their work in helping to identify some of the deficiencies in the hardware setups. Hopefully Sega will look into it.

    Then again, only a very small percentage of people would be likely to notice this, and a "fixed" version of the hardware would be more expensive for Sega than it's worth. I hope Sega says something about it, if indeed it's as bad as it is being made out to be.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVamp View Post
    These will of course have 20% more sound delay than US units.
    Maybe but with higher resolution sound delay, that's Euroblast Processing for you.

    Anyway will European Minis have the three Castlevania versions on them? I mean, how do you load US roms on that one, assuming English language will point to the European rom ?
    Lists of MD games: officially licensed (~925) @ cartridge sizes @ Top 5 @ Top 250 (controversial) @ Sonic hacks @ best title screens @ Arcade ports (150) @ best European

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