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Thread: @Sega: fix the Mega Drive Mini sound delay or riot!

  1. #31
    The Shadow knows Road Rasher Allard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    We are not talking Digital Eclipse standards here. Have you played the Contra and Castlevania collections? I still have the original hardware and the games and you're really hard-pressed to see and hear any major differences and I'm talking enough to spoil the game experience. The scanline filter is hardly the worse and it does the job, I also really like being able to play both the Japanese and Western versions of Castlevania IV and Bloodlines.

    I'll wait to see what's its like on the Mini at the end of next month, but I'm not really going to worry if the emu is like M2 work for Konami myself
    How about d23T or Backbone standards then?
    I own the Castlevania collection. I played it.
    You know, i'ts probably gonna be a shock to you, but emulating 8- and 16-bit games... ain't exactly an achievement these days. I've had these games play and look way better on free emulators over ten years ago. Hell, playing Bloodlines in the Sega Genesis collection via Steam workshop is preferrable.
    And the scanline filter IS the worst, the only job it does is mucking up the colors and making the picture ugly as sin.
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  2. #32
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Filters are overrated.

    Seriously, whenever I see people complaining about emulated rereleases, it sounds like they have lots of complaints about them as if they were completely broken like the AtGames shit or worse… then the discussion always devolves into filters. Are they really the only thing people care about?

    Also I can see why audio lag could be seen as an issue, a handful of frames won't be noticeable (I'd say about 100ms is the threshold), but more than that it could stick out badly depending on the game.

  3. #33
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allard View Post
    How about d23T or Backbone standards then?
    I own the Castlevania collection. I played it.
    You know, i'ts probably gonna be a shock to you, but emulating 8- and 16-bit games... ain't exactly an achievement these days. I've had these games play and look way better on free emulators over ten years ago. Hell, playing Bloodlines in the Sega Genesis collection via Steam workshop is preferrable.
    And the scanline filter IS the worst, the only job it does is mucking up the colors and making the picture ugly as sin.
    I have the Sega Mega Drive Classic's on the One and while people can say it's not perfect, to me its more than good enough and I wouldn't be so quick to say that emu 16 bit systems is easy, I seem to remember the Nintendo fans pointing out some of the differences even in a game like Mario IV. I seem to remember Nintendo theirselfs saying they needed the extra clock speed of the New 3DS for better support for the Snes emu, hell the Snes Mini isn't perfect, but to me they're good enough. The Scanline filter is far from the worst, its a hell of a lot better than the smooth seen in quite a lot of SEGA classic collections.


    The Mega Drive mini is a novelty product at the end of the day.
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  4. #34
    Toejam is a wiener. Master of Shinobi SEGA-Jorge's Avatar
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    Yeah, emulation is never perfect, I've never played absolutely perfect emulation of Genesis, Neogeo or SNES. There's always minor differences. It's more of what we consider is acceptable ranges of quality. I go into all emulation expecting some innacuracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge View Post
    I can both agree with the Notion that M2 is really good at producing high-quality emulation, but also can agree that it's not always, or ever, perfect. I appreciate it for what it is, and am fine playing their stuff. That being said, large collections of games can be hit or miss. Their SOR, Golden Axe, and Monster Boy collections were great, in my opinion, and were very playable, and came with great added extras.

    I don't think that being this critical of the emulation is really helpful, and frankly, this stuff is only noticeable to the most ardent enthusiast. What I'd hate, is to have a vocal minority create a disproportionately large fuss about a facet of the Genesis Mini's emulation that will go unnoticed among the majority of the buying public. The Genesis mini is a great thing for people to have access to. It has a great lineup of games, is accessible, and has a great level of attention put into the emulation. Mucking up the reception of the unit, with nitpicking in regards to this sort of rather minor/trivial inconvenience runs against the point of the unit: Providing a larger part of the gaming public access to a collection of games that shows just why we love it as much as we do.

    There's a hard reality that the members of places like this need to come to grips with: We are not the target audience for this sort of stuff. We could be, if our goal was to introduce other people into the hobby. But this is for people that didn't have access to, or refuse to participate in the retro gaming market. People that play on real hardware, on CRTs, with s-video/component/RGB, are not going to find this sort of thing ideal. It's not for them. This is in addition to that.

    I for one, am on the fence. I don't really feel like I need this console. I have almost all the games on it. Darius will be dumped. There is options for a hardware enthusiast like me. Which is what I, and most of you are. Hardware enthusiasts. The sound, look, feel, speed of the Genesis is particular to this hardware. Hell, not just this hardware, but a specific, small sub-set of a family of hardware. To most of us, non-TMSS HDG model 1's are the way to go, or alternatively, slightly modified long-board model 2's. It's stuff like that, entries within the hardware family are excluded from our range of acceptable hardware options.

    This isn't for us, but it's a good thing to have, for the people that want to experience these games. Let them do that, without the hardware enthusiast gate keeping nonsense, nay-saying, and criticism.

    This emulation is more than good enough for, seriously 95% + of the people that actually care.
    Well-said!! Agree with you completely!! I will be buying both the Genesis and TG-16 Mini's for sure.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge View Post
    Yeah, emulation is never perfect, I've never played absolutely perfect emulation of Genesis, Neogeo or SNES. There's always minor differences. It's more of what we consider is acceptable ranges of quality. I go into all emulation expecting some inaccuracy.
    True, there's always going to be an imperfection in emulation and while my standard is pretty high on this one, there is one obvious thing that needs to be done and that is as others have said, fix the delayed SFX issue, and to the people saying most players won't notice you'd be surprised how perceptive people can be when it comes to syncing issues so don't underestimate casual gamers eyeing this thing because you'd be surprised.

    Look I'm not asking for complete 1:1 perfection here since that's impossible but I am asking for the best quality that can possibly be achieved, and having delayed SFX is a major issue no matter how you look at it (M2 have had almost an entire year to work on this so they've had more than enough time to sort this out), especially as I've said many times in the past and will continue to do so until the release, this isn't just a cash grab mini console like the NES/SNES/PS1 mini we're talking about here, this thing at least here in America is to commemorate the 30th Anniversary of the console's release.

    I mean look at this for crying out loud:



    SEGA is putting their current line of successes at risk here so you can bet expectations will be higher than usual and hopefully, SEGA/M2 can live up to the momentum they've built up, otherwise all of this marketing hype will be for naught.

  7. #37
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superrayman3 View Post
    and to the people saying most players won't notice you'd be surprised how perceptive people can be when it comes to syncing issues so don't underestimate casual gamers eyeing this thing because you'd be surprised.
    ,
    I would doubt it myself. I mean in the videos showing the difference, one needs to point out when the sound delay occurs and make a big point of it, otherwise most I bet, would miss it.
    I remember people saying the emu in Sonic Jam wasn't 100% perfect. In the end, it was more than good enough for most. I get the SEGA diehards making a point, but for quite a lot of the MD casuals who bought the system just for Sonic (and not because of SEGA) I doubt they would care much myself.

    this thing at least here in America is to commemorate the 30th Anniversary of the console's release.
    Let's face it that was never the plan and its just clever PR speak. The unit was delayed and that's the only reason, why it happens to falls on the 30th Anniversary. I really doubt SEGA Japan, worry about such a date either; They simply saw Nintendo make millions cashing in on the Retro craze and thought... we'll have some of that and maybe do it a little better, to SEGA credit they have.
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  8. #38
    Tiido's apprentice Road Rasher TulioAdriano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I remember people saying the emu in Sonic Jam wasn't 100% perfect. In the end, it was more than good enough for most. I get the SEGA diehards making a point, but for quite a lot of the MD casuals who bought the system just for Sonic (and not because of SEGA) I doubt they would care much myself.
    I don't think the games in Sonic Jam were emulated. I think they were reprogrammed for the Saturn. The biggest giveaway is when you pick up the speed shoes, the music restarts faster, which means sound isn't being produced by emulated FM but rather, a sound file in the disk that's played back.

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  9. #39
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Sonic Jam seemed to have gone through a 68000-to-C converter and then modified further to add the extra features (to the point the megaglitch from Sonic & Knuckles is still there… and um, very much do not try it on a Saturn because it'll wipe the back-up RAM there). Sonic & Knuckles Collection was done the same way if I recall correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Let's face it that was never the plan and its just clever PR speak. The unit was delayed and that's the only reason, why it happens to falls on the 30th Anniversary. I really doubt SEGA Japan, worry about such a date either; They simply saw Nintendo make millions cashing in on the Retro craze and thought... we'll have some of that and maybe do it a little better, to SEGA credit they have.
    Oh yeah, about this… Sega originally was reluctant about cashing in, but then the idea floated at some point because Japanese fans kept pestering about it, then the media caught wind of it and started going "SEGA IS BACK IN THE CONSOLE BUSINESS!!!11" and it snowballed from there and Sega had no option but to greenlight the idea. Oh, and the delay happened because they realized that Western fans wanted it too and they probably needed to spend more time negotiating more licenses…

    No, seriously, when the rumors first were showing up Sega still hadn't decided anything yet, which is also why there's such a long delay between "announcement" and launch.


    EDIT: also I swear, Sega is like the only brand that could attempt to try getting back into the console business and anybody actually care. Any slight rumor and people are quick to jump on it, while all the other brands that actually have something going on just receive "meh" as the collective response (admittedly their stuff is spectacularly shit, but OK).

  10. #40
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulioAdriano View Post
    I don't think the games in Sonic Jam were emulated. I think they were reprogrammed for the Saturn. The biggest giveaway is when you pick up the speed shoes, the music restarts faster, which means sound isn't being produced by emulated FM but rather, a sound file in the disk that's played back.
    Correct, Sonic Jam's games are ports not emulation. This is true for Phantasy Star Collection, Mickey and Donald Collection, Columns, etc. as well on the Saturn. Quite a few people think these are emulation, especially the later ones because they have ROMs on the disc. People forget that the ROMs are a very convenient and fast way to get all the game data into RAM for your new port to use.

    In short, the Saturn is not powerful enough to emulate the Genesis hardware.

  11. #41
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulioAdriano View Post
    I don't think the games in Sonic Jam were emulated. I think they were reprogrammed for the Saturn. The biggest giveaway is when you pick up the speed shoes, the music restarts faster, which means sound isn't being produced by emulated FM but rather, a sound file in the disk that's played back.
    Emu/Reporgramed it doesn't matter - You get the die-hards who point out it isn't perfect, while for most people it was more than good enough. This talk of lag will go over most casual gamers heads. I have friends that play their current PS4 games with the Game mode on their TV off: they don't even know what Game mode is or does, much less care. I have the Neo Geo Mini and the emu is more than good enough, The Neo Geo die hards will point out its not perfect (like they used to with Saturn Metal Slug), but its more than good enough..

    I have 2 lovely female friends in work who have become big friends outside of work, thanks in no small part for talking memories of SEGA (we're the only ones looking forward to Sonic movie as a night out LOL).One of them will tell you.. 1 of her favourite childhood memories, was getting a Mega Drive for Christmas with Sonic and her and family playing it over Christmas; That memory means so much to her, that she still has that very same Mega Drive and Sonic game, to this very day (and she is not a big gamer)
    She talked of how wonderful it was, to play that Mega Drive with her 3 year old daughter, last year. She is getting the Mini too, But she'll not notice or even care about less than a second lag, a tiny amount of sound lag or if the Speech in Space Harrier isn't quite right, hell she was happy with one of the cheap Portable Mini Mega Drive's with 20 odd games from Argos.

    For most people the Mini will be more than good enough.
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  12. #42
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post

    Oh yeah, about this… Sega originally was reluctant about cashing in, but then the idea floated at some point because Japanese fans .
    What the 4 Mega Drive fans SEGA had in Japan? .I just felt, Sammy looked at it and saw for a tiny amount of investment for parts, Nintendo was able to make and sell millions of NES and Snes Mini's and thought we'll have some of that. Sammy didn't really care about the 30th-anniversary date in the USA, much less worry about having AT games handle the project. It's only after a media backlash on Twitter (and that place is getting more horrible with each day) that Sammy/SEGA changed course and to their credit, they put a great deal of effort into it now, but at the end of the day it's a novelty.
    SEGA isn't got to having M2 'deep dive' (hate that expression in work) every Mega Drive Mini game, having every part of the programme, to each Minigame run through an analyser, to make sure that every part of the programme to each single game is 100% spot on, for a £70 novelty box.
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  13. #43
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Virtua Hunter's Avatar
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    From Siliconera

    Just in case, are there any other hidden things that haven’t been revealed?

    Hiroyuki Miyazaki, producer: “Nope, we’ve revealed everything!”



    Within Japan, the Mega Drive Mini is quite popular, but what about overseas?

    Miyazaki: “We’ve only seen the reactions of those at E3, but the fans there had a welcoming reaction to the Genesis Mini (Mega Drive Mini). However, E3 is a special event where most who come are media, buyers, or hardcore fans. How the end users will see the Genesis Mini when it lines store shelves is something we can’t be sure about yet.”



    Yosuke Okunari, producer: “On the other hand, we were only half-certain about the Mega Drive Mini. We were reasonably confident that readers of Dengeki would be happy, but at first we were like, “How many people remember the Mega Drive?” When preorders rolled in, we were relieved.”



    On the Mega Drive Tower Mini:

    Okunari: “This was something we joked about later on, saying that “it would be funny to release something like this.””



    Miyazaki: “Originally, the price was higher, but we felt it wouldn’t sell and so lowered the price, and when many preorders came in we were like, “Oh crap!””



    On M2’s involvement:

    Okunari: “Before the announcement, it was top secret, so we didn’t tell M2. However, from the beginning of the project, I knew it had to be M2 to do it.”



    Naoki Horii, M2 president: “It was around that timing, that Okunari-san contacted me behind closed doors regarding the project. If I remember, it was around Sega Fes 2018.”



    Okunari: “Around Sega Fes it wouldn’t be overstating it to say the project had just begun. It was around the beginning of the year that I contacted Horii-san hinting at it, and at the Sega Fes announcement we contacted them saying that we wanted them to do it.”

  14. #44
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Yosuke Okunari, producer: “On the other hand, we were only half-certain about the Mega Drive Mini. We were reasonably confident that readers of Dengeki would be happy, but at first we were like, “How many people remember the Mega Drive?” When preorders rolled in, we were relieved.”
    Relevant pic:



    Even the goddamn bag took a spot, lol

  15. #45
    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulioAdriano View Post
    Okay, how much of this delay is ACTUALLY produced by the console?
    All of it. 11 frames. If my real Genesis has 0 frames of sound lag and the Mini has 11 frames using the same capture equipment, then only the Mini can be blamed. Also it's not likely M2 can fix this, at least not in the first batch because they were already made and boxed by the time we made our videos. They are not gonna unbox them all to update the firmware. IF there is a second batch then they may fix those. But if everyone waits for the 2nd batch then there will be no second batch.

    Also nobody is gonna do a 2nd video about the Mini. Well maybe RGT85 and Shane. But nobody cares any more. That's why a lot of us tried to go into as much detail as possible with the "impressions" video. I did everything I normally do except have my own final thoughts about it. There's literally nothing more I have to say about it.

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