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Thread: @Sega: fix the Mega Drive Mini sound delay or riot!

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge View Post
    All this gatekeeping BS is exactly what the key demographic of the plug and play console crowd is actively trying to avoid. The minor differences that exist between the emulation options ultimately are separated by cost, ease of use, and last, and seriously, least importantly, accuracy. If people cared about accuracy, emulation would be accurate. It is what it is because people that can tell the difference, and actually care about the difference, are in the very small minority.

    Let them have their cake...

    Well said man!

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    I've got a model 1 Genesis, a couple of shelves of cartridges, an Everdrive, a couple of official software Genesis collections on Steam and Xbox One, and regularly use emulators... and I'm still getting this. Why? Because it's so fucking cool! And I want Sega to keep making cool hardware. I mean hopefully some day the other consoles can get some love, too. But for obvious reasons the Gen/MD is priority one. I am very interested to see if/when it can be hacked to modify or add to the built-in library of games. But I think it's going to already have a lot of replay value as is. The sound delay, the very slight differences in sound... interesting, and I hope they can be addressed and improved, but not dealbreakers. This is a special release from Sega and I'm all in.

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    OPN2 in DNA Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher Peeteris's Avatar
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    Like, for real, we are the ones who should support SEGA the most.
    This is their FIRST console made by themselves in 20 years, they undoubtedly put a lot of effort in it and we are still complaining.
    If we want to change something, we should contact SEGA, not publicly threw this mini under the bus

  4. #94
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    Digital foundry review is out, looks like Joe was right, they measured the audio delay to 10-11 frames.

  5. #95
    Toejam is a wiener. Master of Shinobi SEGA-Jorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peeteris View Post
    Like, for real, we are the ones who should support SEGA the most.
    This is their FIRST console made by themselves in 20 years, they undoubtedly put a lot of effort in it and we are still complaining.
    If we want to change something, we should contact SEGA, not publicly threw this mini under the bus
    This is exactly what I mean. I think so much of the stuff I'm seeing online is an extension of this weird notion that people are entitled to whatever they consider ideal. This whole, "emulation is perfect in this form, but not on the mini! Riot! That is nonsense. The Sega Genesis Mini is not for that demographic, and it doesn't need to be. The level of work/money that would be invested into that would not be made back. The console needs to make a profit, and catering to a small subset retro-enthusiasts that are, seriously, impossible to please, would be a disaster.

    I think that Digital Foundry did a good job of outlining the differences, while still suggesting that it is a great buy for the people looking to revisit some old games, or have an inexpensive way to play a really great collection of Genesis titles. They cover how there are definitely better ways to play the games, on either original hardware and CRT's, or on the Analog Mega SG. But they also remind people how expensive some of these titles are, and how accessible the mini makes them.

    One of the things I think gets missed by everyone is the impact/desirability of these mini-consoles. People seem to really like this miniature working replicas of old hardware. A major part of the experience is the build quality, look, feel, packaging, etc. People really like this, and it's almost it's own category of collectible item. I think the mini does a great job of being an all-in-one solution, with varying levels of quality on the separate elements of what makes a "good mini". It's great looking/feeling, as it knocks the aesthetics/packaging out of the park. The titles available, look and feel of the UI, and the sound, graphic, and playability of the software are all, although not perfect, add up to be simply better than other offerings, and seem to be pleasing a vast majority of the people that play it.

    A mini console at this point is an overall experience. A weird nostalgia trip that includes physical new hardware that has to be exactly like old hardware, but smaller... In a crazy way, it has to approach perfection, but in all cases fall dramatically short. And in a weird way, as a hardware enthusiast, I love that. I love that anyone can experience the hardware, but unless you are putting in that time, effort, research, you won't ever get the perfect, ideal experience. You get 10 frames of audio lag. You get incorrectly emulated GEMS driver playback on one of the few games that uses GEMS right. You get graphical artifacts on wide display ratios, quaetionable scanline support. You get barely noticeable input delay. You get 3-button controllers. These old console experiences can't ever be perfect, and that is somewhat comforting for me. Even with all the technology, and access to over a decade of emulation experience, and hardware variations, These companies can't do it better than what they had at the time these original consoles came out. That's great.

    Most importantly, and I can't stress this enough, the real icing on this cake, is that the Genesis Mini isn't just good. It's great. It's the best of the current retro console wave. But what I'm hearing is, it's better than the NES and SNES Minis... And at the end of the day, all we want to know/hear is that the Sega Genesis Mini is better than the Super Nintendo Mini. That's 2, count 'em, 2 4th gen console wins. *runs like hell*
    Last edited by SEGA-Jorge; 09-15-2019 at 12:55 PM.

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreZZ View Post
    Digital foundry review is out, looks like Joe was right, they measured the audio delay to 10-11 frames.
    Here's a time-stamped link:

    https://youtu.be/eZ2pl-cEq0g?t=959

    It's certainly hard to notice unless comparing back-to-back and in slow motion.

    But DF correctly points out that the audio issues are very minor and most people won't notice them, and also that the NES Classic suffered from the exact same problems.

    His conclusion seems to be: emulation is overall excellent, but slight audio lag and slight input lag (although he doesn't measure this but instead relies on his intuition, which seems a bit odd).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge View Post
    This is exactly what I mean. I think so much of the stuff I'm seeing online is an extension of this weird notion that people are entitled to whatever they consider ideal. This whole, "emulation is perfect in this form, but not on the mini! Riot! That is nonsense. The Sega Genesis Mini is not for that demographic, and it doesn't need to be. The level of work/money that would be invested into that would not be made back. The console needs to make a profit, and catering to a small subset retro-enthusiasts that are, seriously, impossible to please, would be a disaster.

    I think that Digital Foundry did a good job of outlining the differences, while still suggesting that it is a great buy for the people looking to revisit some old games, or have an inexpensive way to play a really great collection of Genesis titles. They cover how there are definitely better ways to play the games, on either original hardware and CRT's, or on the Analog Mega SG. But they also remind people how expensive some of these titles are, and how accessible the mini makes them.

    One of the things I think gets missed by everyone is the impact/desirability of these mini-consoles. People seem to really like this miniature working replicas of old hardware. A major part of the experience is the build quality, look, feel, packaging, etc. People really like this, and it's almost it's own category of collectible item. I think the mini does a great job of being an all-in-one solution, with varying levels of quality on the separate elements of what makes a "good mini". It's great looking/feeling, as it knocks the aesthetics/packaging out of the park. The titles available, look and feel of the UI, and the sound, graphic, and playability of the software are all, although not perfect, add up to be simply better than other offerings, and seem to be pleasing a vast majority of the people that play it.

    A mini console at this point is an overall experience. A weird nostalgia trip that includes physical new hardware that has to be exactly like old hardware, but smaller... In a crazy way, it has to approach perfection, but in all cases fall dramatically short. And in a weird way, as a hardware enthusiast, I love that. I love that anyone can experience the hardware, but unless you are putting in that time, effort, research, you won't ever get the perfect, ideal experience. You get 10 frames of audio lag. You get incorrectly emulated GEMS driver playback on one of the few games that uses GEMS right. You get graphical artifacts on wide display ratios, quaetionable scanline support. You get barely noticeable input delay. You get 3-button controllers. These old console experiences can't ever be perfect, and that is somewhat comforting for me. Even with all the technology, and access to over a decade of emulation experience, and hardware variations, These companies can't do it better than what they had at the time these original consoles came out. That's great.

    Most importantly, and I can't stress this enough, the real icing on this cake, is that the Genesis Mini isn't just good. It's great. It's the best of the current retro console wave. But what I'm hearing is, it's better than the NES and SNES Minis... And at the end of the day, all we want to know/hear is that the Sega Genesis Mini is better than the Super Nintendo Mini. That's 2, count 'em, 2 4th gen console wins. *runs like hell*
    Yep, you really have to be a nerd to notice the difference and for those that do actually care that much, nothing less than a CRT and an actual Mega Drive will do.
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  8. #98
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    The DF Retro review faired better than I expected.

    Twitter not so much, so many so called ďSEGA Fans/SupportersĒ talking of or have cancelled there pre order over input lag that hasnít been measured!? Not only that they praise the SNES classic that also has input lag.. Iím dumbfounded to be honest.

    This is SEGAís first home hardware release since the Dreamcast and they have managed to release a mini system that is on par or exceeds Nintendoís second effort.

    I get thereís a few frames of audio delay and thatís not perfect but would most of these potential buyers even have noticed before being pointed out by DF or MLIG? Who knows...

    Iíve got two on the way, Japanese and PAL - I cant wait!

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrX View Post
    The DF Retro review faired better than I expected.

    Twitter not so much, so many so called ďSEGA Fans/SupportersĒ talking of or have cancelled there pre order over input lag that hasnít been measured!? Not only that they praise the SNES classic that also has input lag.. Iím dumbfounded to be honest.

    This is SEGAís first home hardware release since the Dreamcast and they have managed to release a mini system that is on par or exceeds Nintendoís second effort.

    I get thereís a few frames of audio delay and thatís not perfect but would most of these potential buyers even have noticed before being pointed out by DF or MLIG? Who knows...

    Iíve got two on the way, Japanese and PAL - I cant wait!
    I've seen so many comments from supposed Sega fans saying things like "No Sonic 3? Hard pass!" or "Audio lag? It's no better than ATGames!"

    But really, the people saying these things probably wouldn't have bought it anyway.

    I mean, has there been a legitimate negative review yet (not counting that weird one that got pulled)?

  10. #100
    SEGA Representer. Outrunner MrX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    I've seen so many comments from supposed Sega fans saying things like "No Sonic 3? Hard pass!" or "Audio lag? It's no better than ATGames!"

    But really, the people saying these things probably wouldn't have bought it anyway.

    I mean, has there been a legitimate negative review yet (not counting that weird one that got pulled)?
    The SONIC 3 comment is like having a fight with your other half that lasts your whole life time, itís exhausting.

    Yes itís a problem, yes we always expect it to get left out but surely you own this game? SONIC 3 is not expensive!

    I donít think Iíve seen a negative review yet no, I would have loved to see SEGA comment on the audio delay as I feel thatís the only real issue some people are holding over the mini.

    Iíd be ecstatic for SEGA if M2 could provide a firmware update that reduces the audio lag.

    It boggles my mind that Nintendo gets a pass for input latency and audio delay.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrX View Post
    It boggles my mind that Nintendo gets a pass for input latency and audio delay.
    Agreed, but it's Nintendo so plenty of their success is on the back of their diehard fans who will buy anything with their logo on it.
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  12. #102
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    Are the roms dumped yet? I already have several Megadrives and most games on this pack, I only care about Darius. Would've paid for a physical release of that over this emulator pack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrX View Post

    It boggles my mind that Nintendo gets a pass for input latency and audio delay.
    It's Nintendo LOL, but it boggles my mind that so much is made of tiny lag anyway. SEGA come good on this and I hope its sells millions and so we get a Saturn and DC mini from SEGA. Hopefully, the Capcom Arcade stick will see great too and SEGA will make an Astro Pro Stick with the likes of system 18, ST-V and 32 games on it.
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  14. #104
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    The best complains were the people whining that Sega should get their shit together with the legal issues from Sonic 3 when as far as I can tell the problems were already back in the day (we don't know if Michael Jackson's estate is really involved at all, but supposedly royalties hadn't been paid during all this time and one composer has sued ó hard to tell since nobody wants to speak, guess lawyers are telling them to shut up).

    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Are the roms dumped yet? I already have several Megadrives and most games on this pack, I only care about Darius. Would've paid for a physical release of that over this emulator pack.
    No, but the menu music is (assuming it's legit):



    It's a medley butÖ the transitions get rough if you ask me.

    On that note, can somebody make a menu music that sounds like the Sonic 1 part of the medley?

  15. #105
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    Yes, that's the menu music.

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