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Thread: 2nd generation console discussion(Intellivision, Colecovision, 2600, Odyssey 2)

  1. #46
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Demon Attack takes advantage of the fact that the Atari 2600s "screen" is a single line and just changes colors as it is drawing stuff, wonderful game (and port).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    MSX2 does it this way too (albeit at least it can show a lot more of sprites).

    In fact the way MSX2 renders sprites is weird. You can have two kinds of sprites: "normal" sprites render as usual, and the other kind will render as an OR against whatever other sprites are in the same location. Note that in theory you can have 15 color sprites this way, albeit at that point you'd be wasting 4 sprites which is kind of a problem when the limit is 8 per line :​P (most MSX2 games opted for a mix of 1 color and 3 color sprites instead).
    The situation on the MSX is a lot better because the ORed bits don't affect color but palette entry. So if you have black on palette entry 0001, and you mix it with palette entry 0010 (lets say red), you get palette entry 0011 (lets say blue). Slightly inconvenient at best. On the 5200 the OR works directly at the level of color... it gives very bizarre results.
    Last edited by Kamahl; 09-06-2019 at 02:25 PM.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

  2. #47
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    It can do 3 colors per sprite but it requires layering 2 sprites on top of each other to do so and the third color is generated in a weird way (a binary OR of the color bits or something like that).
    Considering the console has a grand total of 4 sprites, that's a pretty nasty restriction. It also has a max of 5 colors in the background in char mode, and 4 in bitmap mode.
    Then thats worthless. Who the hell wrote on the Wikipedia page that it can do 3 colour sprites?

    Also this brings up a good question. Is the NES really the only console that ever did 3 colour sprites? I know the Master System took the leap to 15 colour sprites, which became the new standard until the 32-bit era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The strengths of the 5200 are that it has a really fast CPU, a huge master palette, excellent support for per-scanline changes, can manage software sprites like a champ, and the soundchip is just behind the C64's SID and the NES's audio chip in capabilities, despite being first released in 1979 (for the Atari 400 and 800 computers).
    Honestly I feel before the release of the PC-Engine, the NES was the only console that ever had good audio. Out of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen consoles it was the only one with good audio.
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  3. #48
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    The NES sound chip appears to be very similar to the SID, but with a couple of extra channels of sound (one channel can playback samples), for a total of 5 channels. The SID only has 3 channels, but it too can play samples. The real difference is that the NES could use additional sound chips included on a cartridge.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  4. #49
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Honestly I feel before the release of the PC-Engine, the NES was the only console that ever had good audio. Out of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen consoles it was the only one with good audio.
    The POKEY is really good, it just didn't get a chance to shine.





    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

  5. #50
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The POKEY is really good, it just didn't get a chance to shine.





    If someone can't appreciate Sega Master System sound, then Pokey will never cut it.

    I understand how personal taste can affect any one person's appreciation of a console or particular game's sound. The main instrument in most NES games has always sounded annoying to me and during the emerging 16-bit generation, it was what my friends compared bad 16-bit sound to. Now that I've heard the problems with SNES sound, I can't un-hear it and all arcade and console sound that shifts samples like that has lost its luster.

    Since Yharnam seems more concerned with tech specs, The Intellivision had cassette tape audio that streamed precisely (thanks to to dual digital/analog tracks at once) in a separate channel, alongside other Intellivision audio, back in 1979.





    That was captured directly off of a real actual Intellivision. There's nothing like that on Famicom/NES.


    There are also Intellivision games with 6 channels of PSG + a voice channel running at the same time.





    That is also the most innovative baseball game in history. The entire field is calculated in 3D and stats are incorporated into each action. The programmer would do the same thing for EA's baseball games and it would later become standard for baseball games. This kind of 3D/stat based engine would reach consoles again until the 16-bit generation.

    Of course there is still lots of timeless great 3-channel PSG Intellivision music and sound effects, just as several of the best 8-bit generation music was in SMS games.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  6. #51
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Didnít the Intellevision have a voice command module for voice samples?
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  7. #52
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Didnít the Intellevision have a voice command module for voice samples?



    Life!? ... What console is that on?

  8. #53
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Yep! Voice Synthesis Module. I remember the commercial for that game. Bombs away!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellivoice
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  9. #54
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Since Yharnam seems more concerned with tech specs, The Intellivision had cassette tape audio that streamed precisely (thanks to to dual digital/analog tracks at once) in a separate channel, alongside other Intellivision audio, back in 1979.

    *video embed here*

    That was captured directly off of a real actual Intellivision. There's nothing like that on Famicom/NES.
    Wrong (though it was unlicensed it seems?)

  10. #55
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Wrong (though it was unlicensed it seems?)
    That's really cool. Everything I'd read in the past about it was that the tapes were strictly for data.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  11. #56
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    That's true for the Famicom Data Recorder indeed, the Studybox is a different thing (and presumably intended for use in schools rather than sold openly). Although Studybox seems to use a single stream for both audio and data (and hiding loading times by loading ahead of time while you're still busy doing something), I could be wrong though.

    I recall there was some (obscure as heck) computer that also did something like the Intellivision (one channel for data and one for audio).

    EDIT: it was CyberVision
    https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Matt...er__PART_1.php
    https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Matt...er__PART_2.php

    Also 1977, to boot!
    Last edited by Sik; 09-08-2019 at 06:46 PM.

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    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Yohko16's Avatar
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    Didn't read the thread, at least not yet, but how it is that some people class the SG-1000 as a third generation console?!! LOL, it doesn't make sense at all. The SG-1000 is basically a console counterpart to the MSX1 and both have a hardware very close to the Colecovision.

    My guess is that some people have such a narrow-minded and/or try hard logic that the SG-1000 being Sega and being released at the same time as the NES automatically means that both are direct competitors but they aren't at all.

  13. #58
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    They were direct competitors (no matter how you look at it, realistically the SG-1000 was going against the Famicom, not the older consoles).

    Though some people end up considering the SG-1000 as being "2Ĺ gen" for that reason. And to put it bluntly, generation boundaries tend to completely ignore all the potential competitors that failed to gain traction (a lot of them being more between generations than clearly defined into one of them).

  14. #59
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I can finally watch videos in my browser again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The POKEY is really good, it just didn't get a chance to shine.

    Kamahl you confirmed something for me. I was on the verge of thinking the 5200 has good audio, you showed that is indeed the case.

    Like for example, I've heard tons of Master System games and will never think the console has good audio. Of course with the FM add-on, I think the console has better audio than the NES and matches the PC-Engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Since Yharnam seems more concerned with tech specs, The Intellivision had cassette tape audio that streamed precisely (thanks to to dual digital/analog tracks at once) in a separate channel, alongside other Intellivision audio, back in 1979.



    That was captured directly off of a real actual Intellivision. There's nothing like that on Famicom/NES.
    This entire infomercial was captured from an Intellivision? It does look like it has that Intellivision resolution



    Quote Originally Posted by Yohko16 View Post
    Didn't read the thread, at least not yet, but how it is that some people class the SG-1000 as a third generation console?!! LOL, it doesn't make sense at all. The SG-1000 is basically a console counterpart to the MSX1 and both have a hardware very close to the Colecovision.

    My guess is that some people have such a narrow-minded and/or try hard logic that the SG-1000 being Sega and being released at the same time as the NES automatically means that both are direct competitors but they aren't at all.
    While reading other threads about these consoles, I've seen tons of people ask the same thing.

    What the situation is, is that the game crash is what separates the 2nd gen consoles from 3rd gen consoles. If the console was released before 1983, then its 2nd gen. If the console was released in 1983 or after, its 3rd gen.

    Also the reality is that the Colecovision does have 3rd gen console hardware. It doesn't have hardware scrolling(which is very useful dammit), or multi-coloured sprites, but overall its comparable to the NES. I haven't researched the SG-1000, but if it has hardware similar to the Colecovision then it does have 3rd gen hardware.
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  15. #60
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Well, large amount of sprites (without raster effects or the like) and support for a large-ish amount of RAM is closer to 3rd gen systems, but complete lack of hardware scrolling and the shitty fixed palette makes it look more like 2nd gen. Hence why hardware using the TMS9918A is hard to classify.

    And yeah, that Intellivision video looks like it's running entirely off the tape (it's probably some tape that was bundled with that add-on).

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