2nd generation console discussion(Intellivision, Colecovision, 2600, Odyssey 2)

[gamevet]

I wanted to avoid Coleco's games that were published to the Intellevision, because I felt that fans of the Intellevision would claim that Coleco gimped those games. Ladybug is a pretty good port, but it has those oversized graphics, like most games on the console. It also has messed up timing for the rotating timer.

[Yharnamresident]

I think we gotta get some cold hard tech specs in here. In the form of:
-CPU
-RAM
-GPU(various features)

We need them for:

Core 2nd generation consoles(2600, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, Bally Astrocade)

Pseudo 2nd generation consoles(Colecovision, 5200)

Core 3rd generation consoles(NES, Master System, 7800)

[Yharnamresident]

But first we gotta mention something. Xevious was a very popular game during the 3rd gen. It used a arcade board with a Zilog Z80, which was a popular processor during the 3rd gen, used in the Colecovision, SG-1000, Master System.

Arcade:



NES:



7800:



5200(prototype):



2600(prototype):




I hope a lot of you watch the 2600 version compared to the other versions. The 2600 version really shows what 2nd gen graphics really looks like.

[axel]

Xevious was one of the better ports on the 7800, I'd put it above the NES version. The 7800 is basically a ports machine, it has some decent arcade conversions but not many exclusives.

[Black_Tiger]

I hope a lot of you watch the 2600 version compared to the other versions. The 2600 version really shows what 2nd gen graphics really looks like.

Does this Intellivision vertical shooter featuring multi-layered overlapping parallax and gratuitous animation look like Xevious 2600?




You can see several different stages towards the end of the video.

Even the Colecovision's best programmer + the SGM didn't come close to this.

[gamevet]

I'm sorry, but you're really down playing the sound capabilities of the chip inside of the Colecovsion and Master System. Have you heard the music in Streets of Rage for the Master System?


Parallax scrolling is a bit over-rated. Jungle Hunt on the 2600 had several layers of it.

[Thenewguy]

Numbering the generations is also a "you kids" thing that I don't like

Well we're in agreement there, but we're stuck with them now so I want to complain about the logic

you don't have to recognize a new generation and re-number them, just put the 5200 and Colecovision in the following generation where they belong.

I like it better my way as that way all of Atari's main consoles are in separate generations to each other.

The SG-1000 and Master System are also currently in the same gen together (even though the Colecovision, which has the same hardware as SG-1000 is in the previous gen).

These consoles came out in 1982 and Famicom came out in 1983.

Under the current system there's only a year between the Atari 7800 and PC-Engine so this would not be unheard of.

Currently I'd be putting the Intellivision as the start of my 3rd generation and the 5200 at the end, the NES would start the 4th gen

Japan was not "a few years ahead of us" in the 80s, or whatever BS people think.

Well I don't think that, the C64 was very competitive with the NES especially in the beginning when memory was really expensive.

[axel]

I guess it depends on the perspective, I bet to Atari the 2600, 5200 and 7800 were all intended to be separate generations of hardware, otherwise why build something to compete with your own product? The 7800 was delayed a couple years so the technology is still a generation behind the PCE even if it came to market later.

On that note I also just realized that the 7800 Xevious port came three years after the Famicom port, so that's probably one reason it's the rare case where the 7800 version is arguably better than the NES.

Also that Intellivision homebrew is really impressive but it is a 2019 game so by now I'd expect it to do things that weren't common in 1979.

[Sik]

Well, 5200 was meant to replace the 2600, and the 7800 was made after that tanked (7800 is compatible with 2600 games for a good reason).

Honestly all this discussion shows is how bullshit the whole concept of generation is.

[Yharnamresident]

On that note I also just realized that the 7800 Xevious port came three years after the Famicom port, so that's probably one reason it's the rare case where the 7800 version is arguably better than the NES.

Xevious on the NES is famous as a very early 3rd party game, it actually came out for the Famicom before the NES was launched in the U.S. through the 1985 test market launch.


Also one of the main features of the 3rd gen was native 240p resolution, its something the 5200 and 7800 still struggle with, but the Colecovision, NES and obviously the Master System can handle it fine.

[axel]

Well, sort of. The SMS is really 192p, unless there's some trick to getting it to display on more lines than that.

[j_factor]

I like it better my way as that way all of Atari's main consoles are in separate generations to each other.

The SG-1000 and Master System are also currently in the same gen together (even though the Colecovision, which has the same hardware as SG-1000 is in the previous gen).

Personally I think of the Master System as an upgrade of the SG-1000/Colecovision within the same generation. It has a better VDP, but the same CPU. Sort of like the Supergrafx.

Atari is weird but I think they viewed the 7800 as taking up the 5200's "slot" as the successor to the 2600, not as two generations ahead. The intent was to quickly cancel and replace the ailing 5200, taking a second crack at the same generation. Despite the way everyone talks about "the crash", Atari wasn't planning to discontinue the 2600 at the time.

Under the current system there's only a year between the Atari 7800 and PC-Engine so this would not be unheard of.

I count the Atari 7800 as a 1984 machine, since it was designed for 1984, and units were even manufactured and ready to go. Sales were put on hold for corporate reasons that everyone here knows about. I guess it depends whether you ask Atari's technical department or their marketing department.

Release date isn't everything but it's a starting point. If you didn't know the concept of a gaming "generation", it's easy to just look at a list of consoles and see one "generation" clustered around 1978 and another "generation" clustered around 1983, in the general sense of the word.

[gamevet]

I guess it depends on the perspective, I bet to Atari the 2600, 5200 and 7800 were all intended to be separate generations of hardware, otherwise why build something to compete with your own product? The 7800 was delayed a couple years so the technology is still a generation behind the PCE even if it came to market later.

On that note I also just realized that the 7800 Xevious port came three years after the Famicom port, so that's probably one reason it's the rare case where the 7800 version is arguably better than the NES.

Also that Intellivision homebrew is really impressive but it is a 2019 game so by now I'd expect it to do things that weren't common in 1979.

Yeah, someone managed to make a pretty decent port of Galaga on the 2600 in 2019. The VCS isn't supposed to be able to handle that many sprites.

Atari is weird but I think they viewed the 7800 as taking up the 5200's "slot" as the successor to the 2600, not as two generations ahead. The intent was to quickly cancel and replace the ailing 5200, taking a second crack at the same generation. Despite the way everyone talks about "the crash", Atari wasn't planning to discontinue the 2600 at the time.

.

I remember my friend's little brother getting an Atari 2600 Jr back around 1986. It's funny how Nintendo painted a picture of this giant video game crash causing retail to not want to carry videogames anymore, yet here was the 2600 Jr. with a few new games being sold in those very same stores.

[axel]

I have to agree with j_factor the 7800 probably was initially supposed to be a second attempt at the same generation after the abysmal failure of the 5200, especially since it had 2600 compatibility.

That Galaga 2600 port is nuts, it flickers but nowhere near as badly as I was expecting, the sprite movement is pretty smooth too. One advantage today is that the ROMs can be much bigger than they were decades ago, so people are able to use programming techniques that weren't possible before. That Galaga ROM is 32k, which was unheard of back in the day.

[Yharnamresident]

Well, sort of. The SMS is really 192p, unless there's some trick to getting it to display on more lines than that.

Its close enough. Like everyone says PS2 games are 480i when they're really 512x448 and not 640x448.