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Thread: 2nd generation console discussion(Intellivision, Colecovision, 2600, Odyssey 2)

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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    I'm really glad homebrewers are pushing the Intellivision crazy hard. I never imagined it could do what it does. The fact that it can smooth scroll is huge and really sets it apart from the Colecovision. The Coleco can also do some really crazy stuff if you're ok with really jumpy scrolling and characters. Both consoles are way ahead of the 2600.
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    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    And now somebody will make a game with smooth scrolling on Colecovision just to spite you (MSX1 already has at least one game like it)

    EDIT: er, that video seems to be taken with a MSX2 BIOS so the palette is a bit off :v but that's a MSX1 game so yeah, works on a TMS9918A (seems they used tiles shifted at 2px steps).

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    Nanochess got Princess Quest running on stock Colecovision hardware with smooth scrolling. Too many Colecovision "homebrews" and unlicensed ports use the unofficial SGM.

    The Intellivision version of Princess Quest is also pretty amazing with huge sprites and fast speed.
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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    The Colecovision version of Princess Quest is crazy impressive (more-so than the Intellivision version which is impressive in its own right).
    The game has a ridiculous amount of animated tiles, the black background really helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    I'm really glad homebrewers are pushing the Intellivision crazy hard. I never imagined it could do what it does. The fact that it can smooth scroll is huge and really sets it apart from the Colecovision. The Coleco can also do some really crazy stuff if you're ok with really jumpy scrolling and characters. Both consoles are way ahead of the 2600.
    The one thing that really impressed me about the 2600, was that it delivered a ton more colors than the Colecovision and Intellivision. I was not impressed with the color pallette of the Intelivision, with a ton of games using a lot of yellow and brown colors.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Nah, it used a framebuffer and had a CPU, but it was definitely bottom tier for that generation (and I think the only one that didn't color, aside from Vectrex but that one had a good reason).

    The main thing separating 1st gen from 2nd gen consoles is that none of the former used a proper CPU in any form.
    But the OG Xbox does native 720p rendering and in-game Dolby 5.1 like 7th gen consoles(actually most 7th gen games are literally 720p and Dolby 5.1 combo), yet no one considers it overall a 7th gen console in terms of hardware.

    Could we have more opinions? Is the RCA Studio II considered 1st gen or 2nd gen hardware?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The Colecovision version of Princess Quest is crazy impressive (more-so than the Intellivision version which is impressive in its own right).
    The game has a ridiculous amount of animated tiles, the black background really helps.
    Yes only after 7 days of playing these consoles, I can already tell the Colecovision is my favourite. The console really had a lot of potential, if only it didn't come out at the wrong time.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The one thing that really impressed me about the 2600, was that it delivered a ton more colors than the Colecovision and Intellivision. I was not impressed with the color pallette of the Intelivision, with a ton of games using a lot of yellow and brown colors.
    Were you really thinking of the 5200?
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    Colecovision was for me an early Mega Drive, it really set the standards for Arcade ports. I couldn't believe how good Time Pilots was on the system, I never owned one at the time but used to love playing the CBS in my next-door neighbours house at the time
    Intellivision was really a system ahead of its time what with speech in games, games downloaded over the phone, 16 bit CPU LOL and it really set the standard for sport game simulations and where the system or less did every genre at the time.

    I loved it and still like to play it now, it was the system that got me into consoles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post

    Were you really thinking of the 5200?
    No, Iím talking about the 2600, with its color palette of around 128 colors. Iíve mentioned in another thread that I donít think that even the NES (54 colors) could do a proper Yarís Revenge, because of the multicolored field that cycles through the 2600ís color palette.
    Last edited by gamevet; 09-05-2019 at 02:37 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    No, Iím talking about the 2600, with its color palette of around 128 colors. Iíve mentioned in another thread that I donít think that even the NES (54 colors) could do a proper Yarís Revenge, because of the multicolored field that cycles through the 2600ís color palette.
    It can do lots of horizontal stripes of of colors, but is limited in what it can do for real coloring and pixelart, compared to later consoles. Kung Fu does a great job of exploiting it in a way tgat looks and feels like real pixelart. The 5200 has mode(s) that can do this to add extra color to elements.

    It's kind of like of the Mega Drive's S/H doesn't equal double the colors and detail of of regular pixelart or how SNES games putting a layer of translucent patterns isn't the same as real 1000+ pixelart.
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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    It can do lots of horizontal stripes of of colors, but is limited in what it can do for real coloring and pixelart, compared to later consoles. Kung Fu does a great job of exploiting it in a way tgat looks and feels like real pixelart. The 5200 has mode(s) that can do this to add extra color to elements.

    It's kind of like of the Mega Drive's S/H doesn't equal double the colors and detail of of regular pixelart or how SNES games putting a layer of translucent patterns isn't the same as real 1000+ pixelart.
    I'm just saying, for a console that was much older than the Intellevision and Colecovision, it's quite shocking that it could deliver more colors than those newer systems. I can't seem to recall many games on the Intellivision, that didn't have single colored sprites, like the 2600 does, while the Colecovision had quite a bit of titles that did. The CV was a real step up in hardware power, and it's a shame that Atari screwed up the controllers and PSU design of the 5200, because it could have been a real power house, if not for its bad reputation.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    No, Iím talking about the 2600, with its color palette of around 128 colors. Iíve mentioned in another thread that I donít think that even the NES (54 colors) could do a proper Yarís Revenge, because of the multicolored field that cycles through the 2600ís color palette.
    I had no idea that was the case. Thats pretty shocking for a console with sub-240p resolution and 128 bytes of RAM.


    Also the 5200 was next-gen compared to the 2600. Looking at spec sheets, it can do 3 colors per sprite and has 2/3rds the RAM of the Master System(same as Dreamcast vs PS2). Though sadly it still appears to have that sub-240p resolution, only the Colecovision did roughly native 240p.
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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    2600 can do the color yellow. NES cannot. NES could do a light orange but not yellow.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Also the 5200 was next-gen compared to the 2600. Looking at spec sheets, it can do 3 colors per sprite and has 2/3rds the RAM of the Master System(same as Dreamcast vs PS2). Though sadly it still appears to have that sub-240p resolution, only the Colecovision did roughly native 240p.
    It can do proper 320x240 but only on the background and the background is then 1 color (with the foreground color chosen automatically based on hue and brightness). Wanna have a blue background with a red foreground? Tough luck .

    It can do 3 colors per sprite but it requires layering 2 sprites on top of each other to do so and the third color is generated in a weird way (a binary OR of the color bits or something like that).
    Considering the console has a grand total of 4 sprites, that's a pretty nasty restriction. It also has a max of 5 colors in the background in char mode, and 4 in bitmap mode.

    The strengths of the 5200 are that it has a really fast CPU, a huge master palette, excellent support for per-scanline changes, can manage software sprites like a champ, and the soundchip is just behind the C64's SID and the NES's audio chip in capabilities, despite being first released in 1979 (for the Atari 400 and 800 computers).

    As all old systems, it is a beautiful pile of tradeoffs. If a game can take advantage of those tradeoffs, the results are incredible. Technically an Atari 800 game, but that is the same hardware:



    Notice the High-Res HUD.

    How far you can take the ridiculously limited High-Resolution mode:

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Iím pretty sure weíve had this discussion before Kamahl, Iím not a big fan of the A8 sound chip over the SID, or NES sound chip. Square waves sound clunky at lower frequencies and it isnít until the Atari A8 Sound Chips hit higher frequencies that they sound good. And as big of a fan I am for the SID, I feel that it gets outclassed by the chip in NES.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I had no idea that was the case. Thats pretty shocking for a console with sub-240p resolution and 128 bytes of RAM.


    Also the 5200 was next-gen compared to the 2600. Looking at spec sheets, it can do 3 colors per sprite and has 2/3rds the RAM of the Master System(same as Dreamcast vs PS2). Though sadly it still appears to have that sub-240p resolution, only the Colecovision did roughly native 240p.
    I donít know how Imagic did this, but they managed to make multi-colored enemies in Demon Attack. The other versions have single colors.




    Last edited by gamevet; 09-06-2019 at 02:19 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  15. #45
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    2600 can do the color yellow. NES cannot. NES could do a light orange but not yellow.
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    But yeah, the closest to yellow leans a bit towards green. On the other hand, TVs of the era weren't exactly accurate in color representation, so you were going to have to assume some variation from TV to TV anyway (and likely in a lot of them it leans fully towards yellow).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    It can do 3 colors per sprite but it requires layering 2 sprites on top of each other to do so and the third color is generated in a weird way (a binary OR of the color bits or something like that).
    MSX2 does it this way too (albeit at least it can show a lot more of sprites).

    In fact the way MSX2 renders sprites is weird. You can have two kinds of sprites: "normal" sprites render as usual, and the other kind will render as an OR against whatever other sprites are in the same location. Note that in theory you can have 15 color sprites this way, albeit at that point you'd be wasting 4 sprites which is kind of a problem when the limit is 8 per line :​P (most MSX2 games opted for a mix of 1 color and 3 color sprites instead).

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